Took a sample last night and seems doesn’t seem much different than versions mashed at lower pH. Wife commented that is seemed “strong”/alcoholic and I agree but it is quite young. My fears of creating an overly course tasting beer are easing. If anything, it seemed not bitter enough. I admit I dialed things back from the usual pound of hops since I was worried about the bitterness being course from the pH change. Never ceases to amaze how little hop flavor and bitterness is retained after fermentation. Gonna crash cool Thursday night. :cheers:
So, I guess it’s still too early to tell, huh?
Maybe for acid additions, you should try phosphoric since lactic tends to have a twang to it. I usually target 5.3 or 5.4 in Bru’n water, regardless of the recipe. But I may start targeting slightly higher on dark beers and just shoot for 5.3 for everything else.
I wonder how much phosphoric would become noticeable in 3 gallons of mash water for a 4 gallon batch. I’ve been putting in somewhere around 1mL in that much mash water. I wonder if 1.5 or even 2mL would be too much? This is with 85% phosphoric acid.
Could just be that I can’t pick it up but I’m using way more phosphoric acid that that (85%) to neutralize my strongly alkaline water without issue. For my typical Pale Ale I’m using 6.5 mL in my mash for a 10 gallon batch in order to get my mash pH to 5.3. From reading I know lactic is something that can be picked up if used too heavily but I’ve not seen that mentioned for phosphoric.
Used to use a ton of RO water to get my alkalinity down to something I could brew with but now I just use phosphoric which just leaves me with higher than desired calcium which doesn’t seem to be all that detrimental.
Curious how your batch turns out zwiller, your recipe looks a lot like where I’ve ended up with my pale ale recipe, obviously lower gravity for my pale and I use golden naked oats instead of the wheat you’re using.
Phosphoric acid is much more flavor neutral than lactic, but I contend that in German styles, lactate ion is an underlying component of all their beers. In most cases, they are brewing with modest alkalinity and the amount of lactic acid should produce lactate at concentrations under its taste threshold. But that is not to say that lactate doesn’t add ‘something’ to the flavor. I believe it does.
In my last batch of Hefe, I actually mixed up a batch of calcium lactate by combining chalk and lactic acid. I did this because I brew with RO water and don’t need to add much acid to either my mash or sparging water and I WANT that lactate ion in the brew. I only took the lactate ion to about 100 ppm, so it wasn’t that much. That brew is still carbonating, but it has proven to be tasty. It’s mash pH target was 5.2 and the beer pH was 4.21. I prefer clove, so I did conduct a ferulic rest and the ferment was performed at 62F. There is only a hint of banana…just the way I like it.
I use 85% phosphoric acid for all beers except german. I regularly add nearly 2ml to a 5.5 batch and cannot detect it at all. Noonan states only water with less than 120ppm of alkalinity can be treated with acid without it having a flavor impact. No particular acid mentioned. But that is for lagers… The flavor might not pop out in a pale ale.
Martin, 100ppm lactate. Would you care to express in terms of 88% lactic acid ml per G or 5G batch? I estimate you are talking like 1ml per 5G as 400ppm is commonly stated threshold for 5G. If so, that seems about right.
german lagers, I find, do better if you target ~5.4 - malt flavor is smoother and more vibrant.
Paul, I don’t dispute your finding. I have heard from AJ and Colin that they prefer 5.2 as a target for their malty beers. I prefer 5.2 for my beers with a sharp flavor, but not necessarily tart.
that is interesting. I recall Kai saying his research points to many german brewers targeting pH of 5.3-5.5 for lagers, as well, hence why I decided to experiment with 5.3 -5.4. I really dig the lagers I’ve made over the last 6months since making that ever so slight tweak, so it could be a personal preference thing.
zwiller - I wondered about what you’d find. i target 5.2-5.3 for IPAs to try and keep it crisp and enhance the bitterness, please post back what you think once its kegged/carbed.
When I went lower, the resulting beer got thinner even with 10% crystal and high mash temps. Sharper/crisp might be a better word for it. Lower for malty is new to me. Higher pH favors alpha amylase so it should be maltier (in theory, right?). That is why I did this brew. That, and some pro brewers saying that hops get “oily” over 5.5. That actually sounds good to me.
Originally I thought lower pH was better for IPAs, hops would be less bitter so I could use more of them, bumping flavor, and aroma along the way…
If this doesn’t work to me I am probably going to try 20% crystal… Do any of you guys think there is a chance the hops might leave a better signature with a higher FG? Seems like my favorite IPAs are a but luscious and push the envelope without getting sweet. I
[quote=“zwiller”]
If this doesn’t work to me I am probably going to try 20% crystal… Do any of you guys think there is a chance the hops might leave a better signature with a higher FG? Seems like my favorite IPAs are a but luscious and push the envelope without getting sweet. I[/quote]
I doubt it. Pliny is a dry beer and has immense flavor and aroma. I don’t think I’d go 20% crystal, but go for it.
I’m surprised there is much of a difference in flavor between a pH of 5.2 and 5.4 for the mash, or 5.3 vs 5.5.
Haven’t tried Pliny (although I have seen the recipe and dextrose addition being noted as the drying component) but good point. I would do pretty much anything to achieve the pro hop flavor. The pro beers seem to really pop the fruit/dank/etc and mine are just no where near as good as I’d like. If I didn’t know any better, I would say the good craft IPA are using hop FLAVOR extracts… IE the centennial flavor in fresh THA tastes more like fruit than a hop. Mine tasted like hops, with a tiny hint of fruit. If any of you know how to achieve this I will PAY YOU, shoot me a PM! :lol: I’ve tried it pretty much all there is except switch to british yeast and don’t think that is the silver bullet… Lately, I am beginning it is something like tank geometry or kettle design and us homebrewers can’t pull it off.
I know what you mean, but I kind of doubt it’s the tank/kettle geometry. What is THA?
I’d say it’s a combination of water chemistry (not just pH), hops used and at what times, yeast used and attenuation, and recipe. I don’t think any one thing will get you that flavor you’re looking for. And not all commercial IPAs are good, that’s for damn sure. Ones that stand out for me are Surly Furious, Odell IPA, Stone IPA, Pliny the Elder (obviously…), Goose Island IPA, Summit Saga IPA, Sierra Nevada Celebration, New Glarus Moon Man (which is actually a pale ale, but close enough), and Founder’s All Day IPA. There are a few others, but those are ones I can think of off the top of my head that have great hop flavor and aroma.
THA = Two Hearted Ale.
It is bizarre how much I agree with you on the IPA examples. Seriously. I also agree there is a good chance our own beers are even BETTER than some of the average commercial stuff. Touche’. That said, mine next Founders Centennial: miserable failure… Founders Cent is the benchmark for me.
I sort of agree that it is the sum of all parts but I bet there is a particular technique that works well. Right now I am in the middle of what Thomas Edison’s described as 10,000 ways NOT to make a light bulb… :lol:
Two Hearted Ale…gotcha. Not my favorite, by any means. I think the All Day trumps the others, in terms of Founder’s beers. But that’s just like, my opinion, man.
Maybe it’s because most breweries do a whirlpool stage? Maybe that adds to it more than we know. I like to do hopstands for 30 minutes on many of my IPAs and I feel like they’re pretty good. They aren’t exactly like the commercial beers by any means, but some are better than others.
Or commercial breweries boil a lot harder than we homebrewers typically do. I met a homebrewer when I was out in California back in January, and he said he boils very hard and tries for 25% evaporation rate. His beers were amazing, for whatever that’s worth. I don’t think the boil off rate makes for better beer, but his were definitely fantastic.
One of the things I notice about THA is that it almost tastes like drinking orange juice. Not sure if this is the “fruity” characteristic you are after but is it possible this flavor could come from lactic acid? I believe you said you are using phosphoric so maybe lactic acid would add to the perceived fruitiness. I don’t know how Bell’s treats their water but maybe this could be the flavor you are looking to make it “pop”?
You could be on to something mattnaik, but it would stand to reason that an acid giving the impression of citrus would most liky be ascorbic or citric acid
i’d be more interested in seeing your full water profile for IPA, zwiller.
I really don’t think more crystal malt or higher pH is the answer. I know, via previous posts, you’re comfortable with whirlpooling, and, assuming the recipe in your first post is for 5-6gal, you’re using enough hops.
I think its either overall water profile or you prefer, commercially, a different yeast - 007 seems to highlight some of the hop flavors and aromas you keep mentioning.
Yeah not too sure why i confused lactic acid with citric acid :oops:
Long day at work
What yeast do you usually use and at what temps? I have found Wyeast Am. Ale II fermented at 67° provides a nice fruity character to my psuedo hopbursted PA/IPA.
