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Best Dry Lager Yeast? Starter to increase count?

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

"Another case where you generally don’t want to make a starter is with dry yeast. It is usually cheaper and easier to just buy more dry yeast than it would be to make a starter large enough for most dry yeast packs. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeasts in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into their product. For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not make a starter. "

The big thing to take away is that dry yeast is manufactured with a nutrient coating to aid in fermentation. When you make a starter, all those nutrients get used up in the starter, not the beer.

[quote=“Worts_Worth”]I got 2 packs of S-23 recently, and was planning on brewing something with it this weekend.

What don’t people like about it?[/quote]

It produces and extremely, almost disgusting, fruitiness that won’t lager out. I once lagered an S-23 beer for over a year and John Palmer still said it tasted like Bartles & Jaymes Passion Fruit wine Cooler.

[quote=“Denny”][quote=“Worts_Worth”]I got 2 packs of S-23 recently, and was planning on brewing something with it this weekend.

What don’t people like about it?[/quote]

It produces and extremely, almost disgusting, fruitiness that won’t lager out. I once lagered an S-23 beer for over a year and John Palmer still said it tasted like Bartles & Jaymes Passion Fruit wine Cooler.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity Denny, what temperature ranges have you used with S-23. Like I have said, my experience has been hit and miss with it, but I have never experienced the extreme fruitiness you are describing - But I have also never fermented it below 15*C ambiant temperature.

[quote="Denny]

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

"Another case where you generally don’t want to make a starter is with dry yeast. It is usually cheaper and easier to just buy more dry yeast than it would be to make a starter large enough for most dry yeast packs. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeasts in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into their product. For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not make a starter. "

The big thing to take away is that dry yeast is manufactured with a nutrient coating to aid in fermentation. When you make a starter, all those nutrients get used up in the starter, not the beer.[/quote]

Yes but liquid yeasts have no nutrient coating either and they work fine, so a properly started dry yeast will be just as effective. I’d rather have enough yeast cells than to have them coated with a nutrient. Plus the argument that dry yeast is cheap is somewhat dated. It did irk me when dry yeast doubled in price in a fairly short amount of time.

I’ve used it at lager temps (50-55F) and I’ve used it in the low 60s after reading that it worked better there. Still had no luck with it.

It’s not just about cell count, it’s also about vitality. Target pitching rates are usually quoted assuming yeast that’s been harvested and propagated because that’s usually what commercial breweries do, but homegrown yeast is relatively wimpy compared to what a lab can produce so you need more of it. With fresh, rehydrated (no starter) dry yeast you should need only about half the cell count.

Good to know. Was it the same fruit bomb character in the low 60s as it was in the 50s?

Good to know. Was it the same fruit bomb character in the low 60s as it was in the 50s?[/quote]

Yep, it was. A guy in my club made a very good lager with it, but he doesn’t remember what temp he fermented at. But I (and many others) have had no luck with it.

It’s not just about cell count, it’s also about vitality. Target pitching rates are usually quoted assuming yeast that’s been harvested and propagated because that’s usually what commercial breweries do, but homegrown yeast is relatively wimpy compared to what a lab can produce so you need more of it. With fresh, rehydrated (no starter) dry yeast you should need only about half the cell count.[/quote]
I have a hard time believing a dried-then-rehydrated microbe is going to be more healthy than a fresh-grown one. I do know that a packet of dry yeast typically has twice the viable cell count as a fresh liquid pack, but thats a head start that can be overcome with a starter. I know from experience that I can get good beer from several generations of a (dried or liquid) yeast in my own brewery so whatever vitality advantage that dried yeast had initially can certainly be overcome by cell numbers. The bottom line is, if you don’t want to spend $6x4=$24 on four packs of dry yeast, you can certainly grow up healthy numbers of that strain using starters.

Safale themselves describe this yeast as producing a fruity, estery profile with lower attenuation. Not sure what continental lager style this description would correspond to. Kolsch?

Very interesting. I have not used it in a while, and back when I did I probably fermented in the 17-18 C ambiant range (with no temp control so maybe even up to mid 20s).

Maybe my complete lack of know how saved some beers, because, like I said, most I made were decent. Most issues I had were with out of control temps causing heavy alcohol. Fruitiness was only over the top in a few cases and never to the point others have described.

Regardless, I don’t really plan on using it again since I have 34/70 available.

Since I already had this typed, I’ll add to (and repeat) bunderbunder with my response.

There are a few reasons for not making starters with dry yeast.

First of all, it is usually unnecessary. Most of the popular brands come in 11.5g packages which contains 200+ billion cells. 200 billion cells is enough to ferment 5 gals of an ale at 1.058 OG. So why bother with a starter?

The second reason is the risk of infection. Whenever the yeast is handled, there is the possibility of infection. This is especially true at the homebrew level, where we are rarely working in cleanroom conditions. Because of this, it is often desirable to open a sterile package of yeast and not worry about playing biologist at home.

Third is cost; both in materials and time. If using DME to make your starters, a 1L starter uses about $1 worth of DME. Our host sells US-05 for $3.29/pk. So if using 1 pk to make 2 pks (400 billion cells), for example, you’d spend $3.29+$1.43(for DME per Mr. Malty) = $4.72 vs $6.58 for two packages. In your case, Munton’s Yeast sells for $1.25 for a 6g pk. Using the same logic, you’d spend $4.35 for the initial pack plus DME to get 400 billion cells. It would be $5 to buy 4, 6g pks.

As far as time goes, most homebrewers would much rather spend the extra $1.50 and not have to deal with the time involved to make starter. At least, I know I would.[/quote]

Thanks for the response,although I’m not sure I wholeheartedly agree with everything you’re saying.I know that handling yeast is always risky,and dry yeast supposedly has more than enough of a cell count to handle a 5 gallon batch,but I just made a 5 gallon batch of relatively low gravity beer with 2 packages of Munton’s Gold yeast with no starter,and guess what?I only got about 69% attenuation :frowning: So all in all,I still wish I had made a starter for the yeast.But I don’t mean to discount what you’re saying.I’m sure you have your reasons.I’m not at all sure I understand your last statement,though.If I’m following what you’re saying,the cost of 4 packages of dry yeast is $1.50 less than a vial of liquid yeast,right?But you’re forgetting to factor in the cost of a starter for the liquid yeast,which adds (by your calcualtions) another $1.43,bringing the total to $7.93,assuming you do a starter for the liquid yeast.And that’s to get a starter which still probably wont’ have anywhere near the total cell count of 4 packages of dry yeast [i]without [i]a starter.I don’t know…I think I’ll follow my gut instincts and do a starter for my dry yeast next time.I’ll do a posting about the results in that case.

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

"Another case where you generally don’t want to make a starter is with dry yeast. It is usually cheaper and easier to just buy more dry yeast than it would be to make a starter large enough for most dry yeast packs. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeasts in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into their product. For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not make a starter. "

The big thing to take away is that dry yeast is manufactured with a nutrient coating to aid in fermentation. When you make a starter, all those nutrients get used up in the starter, not the beer.[/quote]

Okay, now that response makes some sense.Thanks for the info.I still have to wonder,though,wouldn’t that issue wouldn’t be just as relevant with liquid yeast?

S-23 turned out fine for me when I used it, fermenting at 46F for a full month, then racking and crashing for another month. But I have been using 34/70 and the Budejovice strain as my lager strains the last few months.

except kolsch isn’t a lager.

Nope, becasue liquid yeast isn’t coated in nutrients.

[quote=“deliusism1”][quote=“blizzardofoz63”][quote=“deliusism1”]
Thanks for the response,although I’m not sure I wholeheartedly agree with everything you’re saying.I know that handling yeast is always risky,and dry yeast supposedly has more than enough of a cell count to handle a 5 gallon batch,but I just made a 5 gallon batch of relatively low gravity beer with 2 packages of Munton’s Gold yeast with no starter,and guess what?I only got about 69% attenuation :frowning: [/quote][/quote][/quote]

I think your first problem is that you are using Munton’s Gold yeast. I’m pretty sure you will have better results using a high-quality dry yeast like 34/70, US-05, etc.

You beat me to it!

except kolsch isn’t a lager.[/quote]
OK a faulsch.

except kolsch isn’t a lager.[/quote]
OK a faulsch.[/quote]

:slight_smile:

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