When batch sparging is the goal to use 170 degree water or get the grain bed to 170 with water that may need to be hotter.
I tend to use 170F water additions, but honestly, I think 170F mash temp is your goal. Keep in mind that raising the temperature traditionally serves two purposes; the first is to stop enzyme activity and thus stop conversion of starches and sugars, the other is to thin the mash to make it flow easier during the sparging process. The former applies to batch sparging, but the latter only a little. With fly sparging it is a much bigger deal, but with batch sparging, a stuck sparge isn’t as likely and thus, the need to raise the temp for purposes of thinning the mash is also not as important.
I’ve heard people mention that you can batch sparge with room temp water with no real negative affects to the finished product. It is also debatable whether or not warmer water really makes sparging easier so I don’t think that is an issue either. And the mashout isn’t really super necessary on a homebrewing scale so that isn’t a huge deal if you miss the 170 in that regard either. When batch sparging I like to use nice hot water for one reason and that is because when it goes in at 170-180* it comes out into the kettle closer to a boil then if it went in at a lower temp.
The goal is to get your grain bed to 170. I use water in the 190ish range (sometimes a bit hotter) to do that. But don’t think you’re doing a mashout. in order to denature enzymes you need to hold 170 for 20 min. or more. In batch sparging there’s no need for a mashout. I sparge with hotter water to achieve as complete gelatinization and conversion as I can.
I sparge with water at about 190, too…but Denny’s reasons are better :shock:
I get my sparge water up to 180ish, dunk the grain sack (BIAB), give it a good stir and let it sit for 15min or so. The temp usually settles somewhere in the mid to upper 160’s. Is there any benefit to getting that temperature higher, like 170F? Or am I achieving the same thing say around 165F or so?
When I add my ~1g of water before the 1st draining I never seem to get much above 160*. That is with boiling water.
Get the 1st runings in the boil pot and put the heat on it. That will denature enzymes.
I don’t concern myself with it.
[quote=“dobe12”]I get my sparge water up to 180ish, dunk the grain sack (BIAB), give it a good stir and let it sit for 15min or so. The temp usually settles somewhere in the mid to upper 160’s. Is there any benefit to getting that temperature higher, like 170F? Or am I achieving the same thing say around 165F or so?[/quote]There’s no reason to let it sit (in the sparge water) for 15 minutes, just stir well and pull the bag (same as with batch-sparging). You will likely get an efficiency boost if you raise the mash temp to ~165F for a short rest, though.
Yeah, I don’t think there’s much difference in that situation.
[quote=“Nighthawk”]When I add my ~1g of water before the 1st draining I never seem to get much above 160*. That is with boiling water.
Get the 1st runings in the boil pot and put the heat on it. That will denature enzymes.
I don’t concern myself with it.[/quote]
I’ve actually started mashing with a higher ratio in order to avoid that. Not only saves a step, but I’ve seen a slight efficiency boost from a thinner mash.
[quote=“Denny”]
I’ve actually started mashing with a higher ratio in order to avoid that. Not only saves a step, but I’ve seen a slight efficiency boost from a thinner mash.[/quote]
Denny, I’m not clear on what you are saying that the thinner mash helps you avoid. Does it help you avoid a grain bed that is only 160 degrees after draining the first runnings or does it help you avoid adding hot water to reach the mash-out temperature before draining the first time?
[quote=“Denny”][quote=“Nighthawk”]When I add my ~1g of water before the 1st draining I never seem to get much above 160*. That is with boiling water.
Get the 1st runings in the boil pot and put the heat on it. That will denature enzymes.
I don’t concern myself with it.[/quote]
I’ve actually started mashing with a higher ratio in order to avoid that. Not only saves a step, but I’ve seen a slight efficiency boost from a thinner mash.[/quote]
I’ve noticed the same as you, Denny. Due to my mashpot/boil kettle size, I’m limited to how much grain/water I can add. So my water/grain ratio is dependent on how much grain I’m using. If I’m around 10lbs, I will mash close to 2qrt/lb and I’ve noticed very high efficiency (80+%). If I’m mashing 12-13lbs of grain my ratio is closer to 1.5qrt/lb and my efficiency is 70-75%. When I get up to 14lbs or more (which is really maxing out my system) my ratio drops to about 1-1.25qrt/lb and my efficiency drops down to about 65% or even less.
I guess that’s essentially what I’m doing… a short rest in the mid 160’s. Doing it this way give me a 5-10% bump in efficiency.
[quote=“dobe12”]I guess that’s essentially what I’m doing… a short rest in the mid 160’s. Doing it this way give me a 5-10% bump in efficiency.[/quote]If you’re doing this with the sparge rather than the mash, you don’t have nearly the enzymes in the much weaker wort than you had in the first runnings - try boosting the temp at the end of the mash with direct heat and see if you get an even better result.
So mash like I normally would (maybe even a little thinner?), after 60min raise with direct heat to 165ish for 10-15min. Pull the sack, drain, then top off to preboil volume? And this may improve efficiency? Very interested to try this. It would cut a step (a sometimes messy step) and a piece of equipment from my brew day.
[quote=“BrewerDon”][quote=“Denny”]
I’ve actually started mashing with a higher ratio in order to avoid that. Not only saves a step, but I’ve seen a slight efficiency boost from a thinner mash.[/quote]
Denny, I’m not clear on what you are saying that the thinner mash helps you avoid. Does it help you avoid a grain bed that is only 160 degrees after draining the first runnings or does it help you avoid adding hot water to reach the mash-out temperature before draining the first time?[/quote]
The latter. I don’t need to add “make up” water. I stopped thinking of it as a mash out long ago. The purpose was to get close to equal runnings from mash and sparge. Then I made a couple discoveries. First, that equal runnings aren’t that big a deal. even a 70/30 split will only cost you a point or 2 in efficiency. Second, using more mash water actually improved my efficiency, as well as saving a step in the process. So I just started using more mash water and sparging with 190+ water to raise the grain bed temp to ensure complete conversion.
[quote=“dobe12”]So mash like I normally would (maybe even a little thinner?), after 60min raise with direct heat to 165ish for 10-15min. Pull the sack, drain, then top off to preboil volume? And this may improve efficiency? Very interested to try this. It would cut a step (a sometimes messy step) and a piece of equipment from my brew day.[/quote]You’re mixing up a couple of different options at one time.
Option one: mash and sparge as you do now (temp increase with sparge only).
Option two: mash with a temp increase, then sparge
Option three: mash with a temp increase, remove grain, top off (as above)
Option four: no-sparge (mash thinner, add any extra sparge water to mash, then increase the temp)
I would predict that efficiency would go from highest to lowest like this: 2, 1, 4, 3 with 1 and 4 about equal.
[quote=“Denny”][quote=“BrewerDon”][quote=“Denny”]
I’ve actually started mashing with a higher ratio in order to avoid that. Not only saves a step, but I’ve seen a slight efficiency boost from a thinner mash.[/quote]
Denny, I’m not clear on what you are saying that the thinner mash helps you avoid. Does it help you avoid a grain bed that is only 160 degrees after draining the first runnings or does it help you avoid adding hot water to reach the mash-out temperature before draining the first time?[/quote]
The latter. I don’t need to add “make up” water. I stopped thinking of it as a mash out long ago. The purpose was to get close to equal runnings from mash and sparge. Then I made a couple discoveries. First, that equal runnings aren’t that big a deal. even a 70/30 split will only cost you a point or 2 in efficiency. Second, using more mash water actually improved my efficiency, as well as saving a step in the process. So I just started using more mash water and sparging with 190+ water to raise the grain bed temp to ensure complete conversion.[/quote]
Thanks, that is good information. I have been doing something similar. Like you, I drain the mash/first runnings as is, then sparge two additional times with equal amounts of water. I will have to try what you are doing and eliminate my last sparge step. The time saved would probably be worth the point or two lost.
I asked the original question becuase i read that the enzymes can keep working if if dont do a mashout or get the grain bed to 170. It sounds like the sparge water temp is not the solution to what im trying to trouble shoot but im going to try the hotter sparge water next batch anyway. all of my beers no matter the recipe seem to be finishing below 1.010 and although the flavor is right they seem slightly off, waterly or thin. I check my PH and check mash temp with 2 thermometers. I did read that maybe ageing could be an issue, Ive learned alot in 6 months of brewign but patience im still working on.
If you think your beers are too dry there are many ways you could change the total fermentability of your wort. Mash at a higher temperature, do a shorter mash (if your worried about the continued enzyme action during sparging), or use some dextrine malt like carapil/foam/malt in your recipe. Of course if you batch sparge, you can drain your mash ton fast and get heat on the wort fast, which will denature your enzymes.
