So my latest attempt at an IPA is better than all my previous. I did a couple things differently in my fining process that really cleared the beer and look some of the grassy/unpleasantness that I was experiencing in a number of my IPA’s previously. The one thing I feel my IPA’s are still lacking is just a bit more sweetness and some body. After carbing, all my IPA’s taste very thin and much more dry than any commercial example.
This most recent IPA the grain bill was as follows:
I mashed at around 156 but it had dropped to 152 by the end of the mash.
Beer was bittered to around 75IBU (Rager)
FG of the beer was 1.014 which definitely implies a good amount of unfermented sugar. The reading was taken with a refractometer using correction calculation for presence of alcohol.
Without actually brewing and tasting this beer, I would say by looking at the above that the beer would be too sweet based on all the facts. But it’s not. It’s still way too dry and thin.
Thoughts on how to correct this? When I was brewing extract I had no problems getting the right amount of sweetness but ever since switching to all grain a couple years ago, all my IPA’s have had this issue.
While I was thinking it might be a water chemistry issue, I brewed this above beer using the EXACT water profile suggested by Matt Cole in Mitch Steele’s IPA book. When tasted side by side with the beer it is a clone of (Fatheads Headhunter) it is, as I described, lacking that sweetness and body.
I don’t want to add anymore caramel malt (it’s over 10% of the bill already and the color is currently spot on) but I would like to brew this again and hope to get it closer to a commerical IPA.
My thoughts would be to cut out all the table sugar and/or try mashing a little higher. I think I might also cut the sulfate in the water down by about half or more. My target was 350 for this recipe so thinking maybe around 150. Thoughts?
Yep, take your own advice. Replace your table sugar with malt. Also calibrate your mash thermometer, maybe it’s off, and in any case, mash a little hotter, like 3 degrees more. Trading some sulfate for calcium chloride may also be in order, as the chloride can enhance malt flavor.
This is a tough one since I don’t like my IPA’s to finish any higher than 1.012. I agree with Dave on the calcium chloride. I typically shoot for 150-200ppm sulfate and 50-60ppm chloride (some will go higher with the chloride).
I’m also wondering what your ferment temps are and the type of yeast used. I’ve noticed a lot of people like to ferment Chico in the low 60’s, which seems like it would limit those sweet flavors from the fermentation. I’ve not experimented with this, so maybe someone will chime in with some experience. :cheers:
I agree with Dave, first cut the sugar then maybe red wheat malt instead of flakes, that might be some body, then Belgian cara-munich is sort of sweeter. I would of thought 156 mash would have given you more body richness than that. You can’t be off much, just couple of tweaks
Hey Matt how do you manage your temps during mash rest? Dropping 4 degrees may have robbed you of some of your target sweetness and body…I agree that 156 should have been good. I have a decidedly low tech method(Old sleeping bag and a large thermal blanket after setting the BK on a stone floor). I lost not one degree Tuesday night when brewing a Dunkelweizen(note to Dave I used the 3333 yeast). Just a thought…
Yeah I was really shocked that it dropped that much cause even in the dead of winter in sub-zero temps it never drops more than 2 degrees. Currently I have a Coleman Xtreme cooler (blue of course). Maybe I’ll start throwing a blanket over it or something just in case.
[quote=“Beerginer”]This is a tough one since I don’t like my IPA’s to finish any higher than 1.012. I agree with Dave on the calcium chloride. I typically shoot for 150-200ppm sulfate and 50-60ppm chloride (some will go higher with the chloride).
I’m also wondering what your ferment temps are and the type of yeast used. I’ve noticed a lot of people like to ferment Chico in the low 60’s, which seems like it would limit those sweet flavors from the fermentation. I’ve not experimented with this, so maybe someone will chime in with some experience. :cheers: [/quote]
Just a thought, you might want to try switching up your yeast for a sweeter/maltier beer. The chico strains are great for a dry hop bomb IPA, but I really prefer an English-style ale yeast for a balanced malt/tropical hop IPA. 1272 is great, as is 1335. I think the reason Conan works so well with a malty rich IPA is all the fruity esters, which certainly enhance the perception of sweetness. Any of these yeasts in a west-coast IPA? Not so awesome. Use chico for that.
US-05 is a high attenuating yeast. Personally with US-05, I get a consistent average 83% attenuation at a mash temperature of 149-150 F. I haven’t mashed hotter than that but I imagine you would still get upper 70s or even 80% for attenuation at like 152-156 F. So, it could be that you just don’t like US-05.
These days I’ve been using Wyeast 2565 for my pale ales and IPAs, with yummy results. While it attenuates almost has highly as US-05, still around 83% average at the same 149-150 F, I find it seems to enhance malt flavor via a slightly bready and nutty flavor to the finished beer. Possibly that’s what you’re looking for?
If I really wanted to play around with yeast as a factor in trying to reduce attenuation / add body to the finished beer, I’d try maybe Notty which is just slightly lower at about 77% attenuation in my experience regardless of mash temperature, or perhaps an English yeast such as WLP002, WLP013, S-04, etc. which will get you much less attenuation in the mid-60s, but will begin to impact malt flavor with their “Englishness”, but perhaps in an interesting manner.
EDIT – @porkchop – great minds think alike, I was drafting my similar but different response at same time as yours. Historically I have much more experience with WLP yeasts vs. Wyeast, otherwise I might have made the same Wyeast suggestions that you have.
[quote=“dmtaylo2”]US-05 is a high attenuating yeast. Personally with US-05, I get a consistent average 83% attenuation at a mash temperature of 149-150 F. I haven’t mashed hotter than that but I imagine you would still get upper 70s or even 80% for attenuation at like 152-156 F. So, it could be that you just don’t like US-05.
These days I’ve been using Wyeast 2565 for my pale ales and IPAs, with yummy results. While it attenuates almost has highly as US-05, still around 83% average at the same 149-150 F, I find it seems to enhance malt flavor via a slightly bready and nutty flavor to the finished beer. Possibly that’s what you’re looking for?
If I really wanted to play around with yeast as a factor in trying to reduce attenuation / add body to the finished beer, I’d try maybe Notty which is just slightly lower at about 77% attenuation in my experience regardless of mash temperature, or perhaps an English yeast such as WLP002, WLP013, S-04, etc. which will get you much less attenuation in the mid-60s, but will begin to impact malt flavor with their “Englishness”, but perhaps in an interesting manner.
EDIT – @porkchop – great minds think alike, I was drafting my similar but different response at same time as yours. Historically I have much more experience with WLP yeasts vs. Wyeast, otherwise I might have made the same Wyeast suggestions that you have.
:cheers: [/quote]
:mrgreen:
I never would have thought about using a kolsch yeast for a pale ale or IPA - that sounds f’in awesome, though!
1272 is, in all fairness, an “American ale II” yeast, but the flavor to me suggests English ale. I think the description off wyeast’s site is “nutty” compared to chico. I personally find the esters it throws really work well with hoppy beers, which I think is what makes 2HA what it is. Not the hops, the esters. (credit to Pietro for this, but I think he’s on to something)
I have messed around with many strains in my IPA’s including WLP013, WLP007, WLP002, and Conan. While they did produce a “fruitiness” that I enjoyed (with some it was a bit too much), and did add a slight perception of sweetness but overall it still came off as dry.
I’ll go ahead with the few tweaks I mentioned and hopefully I’ll get a little closer to making that world class IPA. I feel like I’m getting there slowly but surely.
This was not really my idea, either. I believe Basic Brewing Radio featured a story or two about yeast experiments with IPAs, where the favorite amongst tasters was revealed to be 2565. I’m not sure it makes a huge difference compared to Chico but I figured, what the heck, I often have some on hand anyway and it seems to work pretty well. Hasn’t won me any awards yet, but I have 3 contests with 2 different IPAs with the 2565 coming up in the next 2 weeks, so I hope to be pleasantly surprised if I can make it into the top 3 in any of the 3 contests, and I do think there’s a good chance – keeping fingers crossed.
For sure, use your sulfate level as your drying mechanism. If you find the beer too dry, back the sulfate level down. I still say that the minimum SO4 level in a hoppy beer is about 150 ppm and I prefer around 300 ppm, but everyone has their own preference.
You didn’t mention the OG on that wort. The 75 IBU bittering is pretty substantial if there wasn’t a lot of OG. Remember, reducing bittering is also a way to enhance the sweetness perception.
What’s everyone preferred balance between sulfate, calcium, and chloride? Ie. enough chloride to keep a reasonable sulfate/chloride ratio while running up the calcium, or substituting some epsom for gypsum so calcium doesnt get out of wack?
Working from distilled, I’m looking at my next IPA and currently shooting for 76ppm calcium, 189ppm sulfate, and 26 ppm chloride. The ends up being 8.5 gms of gypsum, 1.7gm CaCl, and 3.5 gm epsom salt in 8.5G of water.
What’s everyone else tried…like everyone else, trying to nail down that perfect house ipa and it’s tough…stouts are way easier.
Any benefit/detriment to a super high sulfate/chloride ration, like 10-1?
Ratios are bogus if you ask me. If you want to enhance hop bitterness, add as much sulfate as you think is appropriate. If you want to enhance malt flavors, add a little calcium chloride. If you want both, add both. If you don’t care, add a little of both, or none at all. There is no tug of war going on. The two minerals can do two different things at the same time.
[quote=“mabrungard”]For sure, use your sulfate level as your drying mechanism. If you find the beer too dry, back the sulfate level down. I still say that the minimum SO4 level in a hoppy beer is about 150 ppm and I prefer around 300 ppm, but everyone has their own preference.
You didn’t mention the OG on that wort. The 75 IBU bittering is pretty substantial if there wasn’t a lot of OG. Remember, reducing bittering is also a way to enhance the sweetness perception.[/quote]
The measured OG was 1.063 so the bitterness ratio put it in line with most standard American IPA’s.
Hmm? 1.063 with 75 IBU is pretty highly bittered in my book. For similar gravity, I’m often in the 45 IBU range with a highly hopped IPA for a bit more balance. You may find quicker resolution with a little less bittering.
I may have to reduce the bittering a bit to see if that helps as well but this recipe came straight out of Mitch Steele’s book. A recipe for Headhunter. The gravity was just a shade lower than I was expecting but it fit within the style (at least according to Beersmith)
