A shorter process?

Wanted to post to subscribe to this thread… Very interested in seeing the results of some testing.

Personally, I think lagering is overrated. Every lager I brew gets tapped at the beginning of lagering so I can sample as it goes. I never really notice much taste evolution over time. There MIGHT be a tiny difference but I believe there are many more critical areas to focus attention on which will make a much larger contribution to the final product.

Something missing from this discussion is lager fermentations held under pressure at higher temps which helps AB hit the 21 day mark.

[quote=“zwiller”]Wanted to post to subscribe to this thread… Very interested in seeing the results of some testing.

Personally, I think lagering is overrated. Every lager I brew gets tapped at the beginning of lagering so I can sample as it goes. I never really notice much taste evolution over time. There MIGHT be a tiny difference but I believe there are many more critical areas to focus attention on which will make a much larger contribution to the final product.

Something missing from this discussion is lager fermentations held under pressure at higher temps which helps AB hit the 21 day mark.[/quote]
I’ll bet you the difference is really just the clarity. Flavor might get a little cleaner as the yeast drops out, but I bet it won’t be a huge difference.
I actually tapped a keg of pilsner last night that had been lagering for only about 2 weeks and man! was it good. I couldn’t get enough, ended up a little more buzzed than planned.

I have always been a believer in longer lagering times mainly because that’s what I’ve read time and time again. I have made a few lagers and have tasted along the way. Some lagering time definitely improves the beer, but how much time, I can’t say. I’ve lagered for a minimum of 4-6 weeks and usually upwards of 10-12 weeks with the longer lagering time producing damn fine beers.

I plan on making a basic Pilsner this weekend and will be putting the 2-4 week lagering timeline to the test. I’m willing to bet it’s quite good after only a few weeks, but that it will be even better as it sits in the keg and cold… like most other beers I make.

One thing I notice when the beer is young is that I’m still drawing some amount of yeast off the bottom of the keg so the flavor might be masked a little bit. I have Siouxerbrewer’s 100% Vienna Malt lager in my lagering/on-deck fridge and it’s only been in the keg for about 2 weeks but it’s still cloudy. I hit it with a gel solution in the secondary and then again in the keg when the beer was cold. My guess is that the gel brought all of that schputz down to the bottom and I’m getting it in the first glass or two. I have only sampled in twice and my hope is that it starts to pour clear and looks & tastes better. The flavor is good but all the yeast in there is not giving me a good feel for the real flavor. If anyone plays with this lager schedule or gets a feel for why/if the shorter schedule works, please post. Cheers Brothers!

I used the shorter fermentation on my last Helles. Pitched at 48F. 50F for three days, 52F for another two days, 55F for two days, 60F for two days then ramped to 70F for 3 days.

It’s only my 4th lager so I don’t have much experience to compare it to. It did taste just as good as the regional Helles from Sly Fox Brewing, and identical to the 1st Helles I brewed with the normal fermentation schedule (brewed a year earlier so by memory). Fermentation was really clean. I did clear it with gelatin. I don’t think it would have been crystal clear without it.

[quote=“breslinp”]I used the shorter fermentation on my last Helles. Pitched at 48F. 50F for three days, 52F for another two days, 55F for two days, 60F for two days then ramped to 70F for 3 days.

It’s only my 4th lager so I don’t have much experience to compare it to. It did taste just as good as the regional Helles from Sly Fox Brewing, and identical to the 1st Helles I brewed with the normal fermentation schedule (brewed a year earlier so by memory). Fermentation was really clean. I did clear it with gelatin. I don’t think it would have been crystal clear without it.[/quote]
Interesting. I might have to look into this schedule although my lager primary fridge does not have a temp controller… I just got the internal controller to 48° and kept it there.

I do think the initial pitch temp is critical but there is a range of acceptable temps. One thing I learned when I started trying to perfect my lagers is that it takes more time to get your wort down to ideal temps than I thought. IE I would chill wort to 70s F and around 10PM throw in a fridge set to 48F overnight ASSUMING it would be 48F in the AM to pitch. I measured it once and the wort was 60F! Glass is a good insulator and 6G of wort has a lot of thermal mass. I needed about 24 hours with fridge set to 32F to get wort to 48F…

Not sure if any of you lagerheads had seen this before or if it is typical or not but… I once taught some buddies AG and the particular beer we brewed that day was a CAP. One buddy has OCD more than me and was obsessed with crystal clear beer… I told him that with some clarifiers and cold temps the beer would be clear but he insisted we wait until every dang thing we did was crystal clear since it was HIS BEER. Needless to say, it was along day. So the beer was left at his house to ferment and he invited me over to check out after a week or so… And there it was… I kid you not: 5.5 of crystal clear beer fermenting away. It was bizarre and I’ve never seen anything like it again.

[quote=“Ken Lenard”][quote=“breslinp”]I used the shorter fermentation on my last Helles. Pitched at 48F. 50F for three days, 52F for another two days, 55F for two days, 60F for two days then ramped to 70F for 3 days.

It’s only my 4th lager so I don’t have much experience to compare it to. It did taste just as good as the regional Helles from Sly Fox Brewing, and identical to the 1st Helles I brewed with the normal fermentation schedule (brewed a year earlier so by memory). Fermentation was really clean. I did clear it with gelatin. I don’t think it would have been crystal clear without it.[/quote]
Interesting. I might have to look into this schedule although my lager primary fridge does not have a temp controller… I just got the internal controller to 48° and kept it there.[/quote]

My SOP is to pitch and hold around 48-50F for 5-7 days then slowly start raising the temp about 1 or 2 degrees per day until it gets up to 64F. I leave it sit at 64F for a day or two then drop it down to 35-38F for lagering. I’ve used this process with great success.

Once I strayed and kept the temp at 48-50F for almost 3 weeks then dropped to lagering temps. Had a fermentor full of movie theater butter… diacetyl. 5 gallons of a Vienna Lager ruined. I was soooo pissed! Totally my fault for not tasting it, but I had to dump the batch. Only the second batch I ever dumped out of close to 100 batches. I’ll be sticking with my normal procedure from now on.

[quote=“dobe12”][quote=“Ken Lenard”][quote=“breslinp”]I used the shorter fermentation on my last Helles. Pitched at 48F. 50F for three days, 52F for another two days, 55F for two days, 60F for two days then ramped to 70F for 3 days.

It’s only my 4th lager so I don’t have much experience to compare it to. It did taste just as good as the regional Helles from Sly Fox Brewing, and identical to the 1st Helles I brewed with the normal fermentation schedule (brewed a year earlier so by memory). Fermentation was really clean. I did clear it with gelatin. I don’t think it would have been crystal clear without it.[/quote]
Interesting. I might have to look into this schedule although my lager primary fridge does not have a temp controller… I just got the internal controller to 48° and kept it there.[/quote]

My SOP is to pitch and hold around 48-50F for 5-7 days then slowly start raising the temp about 1 or 2 degrees per day until it gets up to 64F. I leave it sit at 64F for a day or two then drop it down to 35-38F for lagering. I’ve used this process with great success.

Once I strayed and kept the temp at 48-50F for almost 3 weeks then dropped to lagering temps. Had a fermentor full of movie theater butter… diacetyl. 5 gallons of a Vienna Lager ruined. I was soooo pissed! Totally my fault for not tasting it, but I had to dump the batch. Only the second batch I ever dumped out of close to 100 batches. I’ll be sticking with my normal procedure from now on.[/quote]
Yeah, you can’t go from 50° down to lager temps (35° or whatever) without bringing it up first. I made that mistake once thinking it was supposed to be done that way. But now ALL of my beers (ales and lagers) end up in a secondary on my cool basement floor so no beer ever goes from “fermentation temp” to “cold” without warming up first.

[quote=“zwiller”]I do think the initial pitch temp is critical but there is a range of acceptable temps. One thing I learned when I started trying to perfect my lagers is that it takes more time to get your wort down to ideal temps than I thought. IE I would chill wort to 70s F and around 10PM throw in a fridge set to 48F overnight ASSUMING it would be 48F in the AM to pitch. I measured it once and the wort was 60F! Glass is a good insulator and 6G of wort has a lot of thermal mass. I needed about 24 hours with fridge set to 32F to get wort to 48F…

Not sure if any of you lagerheads had seen this before or if it is typical or not but… I once taught some buddies AG and the particular beer we brewed that day was a CAP. One buddy has OCD more than me and was obsessed with crystal clear beer… I told him that with some clarifiers and cold temps the beer would be clear but he insisted we wait until every dang thing we did was crystal clear since it was HIS BEER. Needless to say, it was along day. So the beer was left at his house to ferment and he invited me over to check out after a week or so… And there it was… I kid you not: 5.5 of crystal clear beer fermenting away. It was bizarre and I’ve never seen anything like it again.[/quote]
After a chill with my IC, I place my BK in the deep sink with water and ice and let it drop to close to 50°. This time of year, the IC might get it down into the 50s by itself but in the summer it won’t go lower than 70° so I have to bring it down the rest of the way with ice. Snow works too. :wink:

The traditional German fermentation schedule does not incorporate a diacetyl rest or temp rise which is why it needs so much lagering time. 12 weeks minimum as per Kai/Kunze. I think once you raise the temp there is no need to lager, just clarify and condition, etc.

You gotta love the debates among homebrewers about German beers. Whether it be decoction, diacteyl rest, longer lagering times, whatever. I’ve pretty much tried all the typical stuff except spunding or using speise to see if I could make my beer more authentic and not really found any process that has a definitive impact with the exception of water treatment. I’ve done the traditional cold thing with long lagering times before and do not really think it was a considerable improvement either.

Ken, how long does it take you to drop BK at 70F to 50F with the ice? Might be able do something like that if it is relatively quick. Chilling seems like eternity after a long brew session… Side benefit to doing the overnight chill is I rack off from the trub because it settles well overnight.

[quote=“zwiller”]
Ken, how long does it take you to drop BK at 70F to 50F with the ice? Might be able do something like that if it is relatively quick. Chilling seems like eternity after a long brew session… Side benefit to doing the overnight chill is I rack off from the trub because it settles well overnight.[/quote]
Depending on the time of year and what temp I started with, the BK usually sits in the sink for about 30 minutes-ish. Our freezer has a decent sized ice hopper so I pull that out and pour in a bunch of ice (less in the winter, more in the summer) with cold water and let it sit. This not only cools the wort down further but allows everything to settle better. Than I rack from BK to primary and the wort is crystal clear… for about 4 gallons. Then I start to pick up some break material and hop schputz. Btw… I do this with ales too. I just don’t add as much ice and try to get the temp around 60° before I pitch. Also, in the winter, I have gone out to the backyard with a bucket and grabbed a bunch of snow and used that to chill too.

[quote=“Ken Lenard”][quote=“zwiller”]
Ken, how long does it take you to drop BK at 70F to 50F with the ice? Might be able do something like that if it is relatively quick. Chilling seems like eternity after a long brew session… Side benefit to doing the overnight chill is I rack off from the trub because it settles well overnight.[/quote]
Depending on the time of year and what temp I started with, the BK usually sits in the sink for about 30 minutes-ish. Our freezer has a decent sized ice hopper so I pull that out and pour in a bunch of ice (less in the winter, more in the summer) with cold water and let it sit. This not only cools the wort down further but allows everything to settle better. Than I rack from BK to primary and the wort is crystal clear… for about 4 gallons. Then I start to pick up some break material and hop schputz. Btw… I do this with ales too. I just don’t add as much ice and try to get the temp around 60° before I pitch. Also, in the winter, I have gone out to the backyard with a bucket and grabbed a bunch of snow and used that to chill too.[/quote]

This time of year, our pool water is near 50F…makes for an awesome chill-pool.

cheers.

[quote=“StormyBrew”][quote=“Ken Lenard”][quote=“zwiller”]
Ken, how long does it take you to drop BK at 70F to 50F with the ice? Might be able do something like that if it is relatively quick. Chilling seems like eternity after a long brew session… Side benefit to doing the overnight chill is I rack off from the trub because it settles well overnight.[/quote]
Depending on the time of year and what temp I started with, the BK usually sits in the sink for about 30 minutes-ish. Our freezer has a decent sized ice hopper so I pull that out and pour in a bunch of ice (less in the winter, more in the summer) with cold water and let it sit. This not only cools the wort down further but allows everything to settle better. Than I rack from BK to primary and the wort is crystal clear… for about 4 gallons. Then I start to pick up some break material and hop schputz. Btw… I do this with ales too. I just don’t add as much ice and try to get the temp around 60° before I pitch. Also, in the winter, I have gone out to the backyard with a bucket and grabbed a bunch of snow and used that to chill too.[/quote]

This time of year, our pool water is near 50F…makes for an awesome chill-pool.

cheers.[/quote]
There you go.

I probably could have just left the BK outside a few minutes yesterday to chill with a -25f windchill… :lol:

This thread is getting me thinking about finally getting around to trying a hopstand or hop burst on a NGP. But, with a 1-2 week fermentation @ 48F, 2 day d rest @ 68F, and 1-2 weeks crash cooled @ 30F or “lagering”.

Great thread. My lager schedule is basically like dobe12’s. I’ve a mexican vienna and a czech pils coming up so that may be a good time to test the shorter lager period. As for chilling, our tap water is around 40F this time of year so my duda plate chiller will bring me to 50F in 10-15 minutes or so.