58° is the right temperature for...?

[deliusism1]

@Denny

[quote=“deliusism1”]No, I definitely knew for sure how those folks were brewing their beer, because I knew the brewers. But that’s not the point. I know that many lager yeasts (maybe even all of them, for all I know) will still ferment at higher temps. But for a beer to be a true lager, it has to be cold-conditioned after primary fermentation is complete, which of course you know. This brewery was not doing that. They were using lager yeast, but they were not using refrigeration in any point in the process, and they were still calling their beers lagers, which- I’m sure you would agree- was a definite case of false advertising.

Sorry…I was talking about the contention that a lager yeast won’t ferment well at higher temps.[/quote]

No apology needed. I don’t really have any experience using lager yeasts at temps higher than their intended ranges, I’m just passing on info I’ve heard from others. I’ve actually considered going that route myself, just to see how a beer would turn out if it was made that way. The aforementioned brewery certainly had no problem with that approach, but like I said, I think that there are some lager yeast strains that will not perform well at higher temps.

[bokonon]

@Denny

[quote=“deliusism1”]I won’t argue with you on that point if you’ve got experience fermenting with lager yeasts at higher temps. I’m simply repeating what I’ve heard from other people who have had that problem, because it seems to be fairly common. Then again, I know of a (now defunct) microbrewery that used lager yeasts at higher temps, and never even lagered the beers they made, and still called them “lagers”. They were pretty decent beers, but I could definitely tell that they weren’t true lagers.

I think either you were misinformed or misunderstood. A higher temp will not inhibit a lager fermentation.[/quote]

I’m sure the higher temp they are claiming is much lower than it, but lager yeast will not ferment at 90+. One of the ways to determine if an unknown strain is ale vs lager

[rebuiltcellars]

@Bokonon

I’m sure the higher temp they are claiming is much lower than it, but lager yeast will not ferment at 90+. One of the ways to determine if an unknown strain is ale vs lager

Really? I had thought yeast of pretty much every strain will ferment happily at temps up to at least 110F. They will make lousy beer at those temps, but the yeast aren’t concerned about that…

[dobe12]

I agree with Denny here. 58F is a great ambient temp for a lot of ale yeast strains. Pitch around 60F, let it ferment for a few days with that ambient temp of 58F, then when it slows bring the carboy to an upstairs room that’s a little warmer so it finishes up.

IMO 58F is way too warm for a lager. I pitch and hold lagers closer to 48F. 58F isn’t going to get you those nice smooth yet crisp lager characteristics.

Also, fermenting a lager at 58F won’t leave an under-attenuated beer. If anything, it will be over attenuated due to the higher temps. Of course the final product won’t taste good at all, but just the opposite of what was stated earlier is true.

[simple]

Perfect. Your ferment will be warmer than ambient.

[tom_sawyer]

I believe AB runs lager fermentations at 55F. Of course they are doing pressurized fermentations and that does lower ester formation. I do think one could get decent results a little above 50F, not to 58F though and certainly not above that due to ferm warming.

[knobd]

I would do the following:

1. Swamp cooler or just a simple wet towel wrap.
2. Pick a lager that does not need to be perfectly clean (probably anything but a Pilsner).
3. I’m not sure how you are packaging but if you are bottling and have the refrigerator space get the beer bottled asap and bottle lager it for a good 6 to 8 weeks. I did this once with an Amercan style Pilsner and it really came out clean (and this was using 2112).

I think you’ll be ok no matter what. It definately is not true that it “won’t taste good at all”. I did a Bohemian Pilsner once using 2124 in the mid fifties and it was fine. Check out Wyeast’s website for the true ranges the yeasts can work out. You’ll see that 2124 can be used all the way up to 68 (
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=30
).

Regarding the 1007 suggestion I totally agree. I did a dunkel once that really came out nice with it.

[tom_sawyer]

I would caution about the yeast comapnies’ temp ranges. I think they are geared towards commercial fermentation apparatus, and are above where a homebrewer is typically going to want to run.

The San Fran lager yeast makes a pretty clean dry beer at 60F.

[dobe12]

[quote=“knobd”]I would do the following:

1. Swamp cooler or just a simple wet towel wrap.
2. Pick a lager that does not need to be perfectly clean (probably anything but a Pilsner).
3. I’m not sure how you are packaging but if you are bottling and have the refrigerator space get the beer bottled asap and bottle lager it for a good 6 to 8 weeks. I did this once with an Amercan style Pilsner and it really came out clean (and this was using 2112).

I think you’ll be ok no matter what. It definately is not true that it “won’t taste good at all”. I did a Bohemian Pilsner once using 2124 in the mid fifties and it was fine. Check out Wyeast’s website for the true ranges the yeasts can work out. You’ll see that 2124 can be used all the way up to 68 (
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=30
).

Regarding the 1007 suggestion I totally agree. I did a dunkel once that really came out nice with it.[/quote]

Sorry… I’ll be more specific. Fermenting a lager using a lager yeast at 58F (ambient) won’t yield a good tasting lager, IMO. It will have more ale characteristics. But since you’re asking about an ale, you’ll be fine at 58F (ambient).

[knobd]

@dobe12

Sorry… I’ll be more specific. Fermenting a lager using a lager yeast at 58F (ambient) won’t yield a good tasting lager, IMO. It will have more ale characteristics. But since you’re asking about an ale, you’ll be fine at 58F (ambient).

I suggested that he stay away from finesse lagers to make up for some of the ale characteristics that may creep into the beer but my experience at that temperature saw the beer was still more of a lager than an ale (all brewhouses are different).

I think the OP should give it a try. If he likes the beer then he’ll know he can brew a lager in his basement in the winter from this point on. I do think that 2112 will give him a really nice beer at this temp and he should go with that if he wants to do a lager at 58 but he said “other than 2112” in his original post. 1007 would personally be my second choice at this temp. In addition to the dunkel, I did a nice psuedo Belgian pilsner with it once that was great. You may need to fine the 1007, however, as it stays in suspension forever.

I’m in the process of returning to brewing for the first time in close to 8 years and the memories of 1007 actually have me thinking of using it in my first return batch.

[dobe12]

IMO, 58F ambient is not cold enough to make a larger with lager characteristics. At that temp (58F ambient) the fermentation temps will be closer to the low 60’s which is ale territory. Of course there are lager or hybrid yeast that can mimic lager characteristics at slightly elevated temps, but I wouldn’t recommend fermenting that warm if you truly want lager characteristics (smooth, crisp, clean). By all means give it a shot, but IMO, there is no substitute for a nice clean, crisp, smooth lager feremented around 46-50F then lagered around 34-36F for a minimum of 4 weeks with any added time only making the final product better.

And my main point is you can ferment many ale yeast strains with an ambient temp of 58F. I ferment most of my ales (excluding Saisons, Belgians, etc) around 60-62F. Again, this is all just my opinion.

[denny]

@tom sawyer

I would caution about the yeast comapnies’ temp ranges. I think they are geared towards commercial fermentation apparatus, and are above where a homebrewer is typically going to want to run.

+1.060!

[denny]

[quote=“dobe12”]IMO, 58F ambient is not cold enough to make a larger with lager characteristics. At that temp (58F ambient) the fermentation temps will be closer to the low 60’s which is ale territory. Of course there are lager or hybrid yeast that can mimic lager characteristics at slightly elevated temps, but I wouldn’t recommend fermenting that warm if you truly want lager characteristics (smooth, crisp, clean). By all means give it a shot, but IMO, there is no substitute for a nice clean, crisp, smooth lager feremented around 46-50F then lagered around 34-36F for a minimum of 4 weeks with any added time only making the final product better.

And my main point is you can ferment many ale yeast strains with an ambient temp of 58F. I ferment most of my ales (excluding Saisons, Belgians, etc) around 60-62F. Again, this is all just my opinion.[/quote]

My opinion (and experience) also.

[kcbeersnob]

@GarretD

the carboy/beer will be 5-8 degrees above that for the first 4-8 days

This has not been my experience. I typically see fermometer temp just a few degrees above ambient temp and only for the first 2-5 days normally.

[masquelle]

@knobd

[quote=“dobe12”]Sorry… I’ll be more specific. Fermenting a lager using a lager yeast at 58F (ambient) won’t yield a good tasting lager, IMO. It will have more ale characteristics. But since you’re asking about an ale, you’ll be fine at 58F (ambient).

I suggested that he stay away from finesse lagers to make up for some of the ale characteristics that may creep into the beer but my experience at that temperature saw the beer was still more of a lager than an ale (all brewhouses are different).

I think the OP should give it a try. If he likes the beer then he’ll know he can brew a lager in his basement in the winter from this point on. I do think that 2112 will give him a really nice beer at this temp and he should go with that if he wants to do a lager at 58 but he said “other than 2112” in his original post. 1007 would personally be my second choice at this temp. In addition to the dunkel, I did a nice psuedo Belgian pilsner with it once that was great. You may need to fine the 1007, however, as it stays in suspension forever.

I’m in the process of returning to brewing for the first time in close to 8 years and the memories of 1007 actually have me thinking of using it in my first return batch.[/quote]

Thanks for the really thoughtful and insightful reply. Sincerely!