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Who hates foam?

The joy of kegging

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Who hates foam?

by Mercury320 » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:45 pm

I can't help but notice the tremendous number of people complaining of foam in the kegerator setups. Having taught myself how to get rid of this problem, I'd like to share a few tips with you all. Lets start with the keg and work out way to the glass as a logical progression.

Beer: Fresh, cold, and settled. Fresh means fresh. If your beer is a few months old, it is exponentially more likely to have foam issues from secondary fermentation among other things. Cold is below 40 degrees. I see 42 degrees listed as the maximum temperature for holding beer. I'd like to protest that number from a serving standpoint. 42 degree beer means a box temperature of around 41-42 degrees. This isn't going to help pour a decent beer because it is going to require a regulator setting so high your line resistance balance point is going to be so high you'll need a ton of line and your still asking for it. Stick with a product temperature of 36-38 degrees. To achieve this, I havea box temperature of about 34-35 degrees ambient when the thermostat becomes satisfied and shuts off. This temperature is going to be important later, but wait for that. Settled just means that the keg has had time to chill in the kegerator. Where I get my kegs (I admit, I don't brew beer, but that doesn't make me a bad person) they are generally about 40-44 degrees, and by the time I bounce them all the way home in Arizona I am lucky if they are still under 48 degrees. So they need to chill and settle (temperature drop + (re)absorbition of CO2. Side note here, make sure your regulator to tap setup has been purged of oxygen before you tap the keg. Otherwise you are putting a big slug of air into your keg.

Ok so thats covers the beer. Now the tap setup, which in my book is the regulator, gas line, and tap, but no further. Two words this time. Clean and working. Seems simple, but I have taken apart so many taps full of goo it makes me ill. Taps do come apart. Doesn't take a motorhead to figure this out. clean them, scrub them, sanitize them, lubricate the O-Rings, replace worn/broken parts, etc. Working. Worn parts again, and cheap chinese regulators. There are so many different types and brands of regulators it would be impossible to cover them all. Nor do I advocate taking your regulator apart. But a welding supply shop could do this for you. If your regulator routinely creeps way past your original set point, its time for a new diaphram and spring. If its cheap, don't bother, get a new one. I like Smith, but there are others and I'm not a product endorser so do your own homework. Even good regulators creep a little from time to time. Use a BALL VALVE ON YOUR GAS LINE. TURN IT OFF WHEN YOU ARE NOT DRAWING BEER (but leave it on for an hour after a lot of beers have been drawn, or while a new keg is cooling). The spill you limit to a puddle instead of a collapsed celing might just be your own. I am a HUGE advocate for STAINLESS STEEL taps and faucets. Lets talk about that more later though.

Beer line. Micro-Matic or similar. If you are using that cheap thin wall vinyl tubing that came with your kegerator still, shame on you. For kegerators, 3/16" beer line or don't bother. Many retailers of keg beer have this line sitting around the shop in one form or another. I like the clear Micro-Matic line, but the Perlick black line used to re-hose pumps is really really nice too (but you can't see inside, so cleaning requires faith, something I don't have).

Beer line routing. Up, Up, and Away. No I'm not talking about superman or your drivers education teacher, but its simple. Create a trap in your beer line and you are going to have brix stratification. Thats the seperation of the dissolved CO2 gas from the beer in the lines. Little pockets of gas that sit in your beer line waiting for you to pull the handle so they can rock your faucet and lines with a hydrostatic shock and fill your glass with foam. So keep beer lines going up from the keg. That is so so much easier said then done. But there is help - Use a Perlick Lo-Boy tap. It dumps beer out just slightly above the Sankey, and from the side instead of straight up. Try coiling your beer line from the Lo-boy around the edge of the keg (another use for Duct-Tape!) and then up. This Up Up and Away thing usually isn't such a big problem with 1/4 kegs, because there is generally a lot of space between the top of the keg and the faucet, but with 1/2 barrels, well you all know what I am talking about.

Beer Tower - The MOST IMPORTANT PART ABOUT IT. This MUST be refrigerated. Insulation is NOT refrigeration. I have seen many attempts, but the thermometer is king here. Working in refrigeration, I have tons of thermocouple type measuing devices, and my kegerators have looked a lot like NASA experiments at times. All this work has lead me to believe there is no substitute for what I can Co-Axial Forced Air cooling, or a Refrigerated Glycol Loop. Lets start with the Co-Axial Forced Air cooling because it is the cheapest, and in many ways the most effective. Puting a fan at the bottom of the tower is not a good idea. It may keep the beer line cool, but at what cost to: 1. The box temperature 2. The little undersized compressor dealing with the loss out the top (the only way to get enough flow to actually keep the line at keg temperature) and 3. your electric bill. But the fan wasn't a bad idea, it just needed improvment. If you have a forced air cooled box (like a silver king, true, bev-air, etc) you are in luck. If not, you will need a small (>3" computer cooling fan to force the air. The next thing is a piece of flexible 1" I.D. braided vinyl or PVC tubing. You will need one of three PVC couplers, either a 180, 90, or 45 degree elbow. Depending on what kind of fan you have you may need something more to attach the fan. If you have a forced air box, then the angle couplers with a couple holes drilled in them so you can zip-tie them to the outlet air grate of the evaporator section (hence the angles, the tubing isn't very flexible, and you may need the angled couplers to get it to work. Then a hole big enough to get your beer line through (drill it, please) set back at least an inch longer then your tower height. Basically you are going to use the fan, or the fan you add, to suck air directly from the evaporator section of the kegerator and force it up the draft tower with the beer line inside. That air temperature for me when the unit is running is typically 28 degrees, and never more then 36 degrees when the compressor isn't running. This keeps the beer keg temperature. And it allows that same air to return to the box by being forced back down the draft column because it is capped and sealed off. You will need to insulate the draft column, and your not going to have a ton of room, so a sheet of cork insulation cut to size and rolled up works nice. Otherwise you are going to have a ton of condensation on the outside of the column, causing damage to whatever it drips on. With this system, at rest the temperature of the faucet is still below 42 degrees, and will remain under 40 during service as long as a beer is pulled <30 minutes. Parts express sells the fan you want, partsexpress.com 259-115, and get a transformer from around the house or try ebay for a "200ma adapter" and get something that does 9v-12v.

Faucets and more on Stainless steel and Hygiene. I hate foam, and I hate cleaning. If you keep your lines and faucet cold like I do, you really don't have to clean. Use stainless steel shanks, faucets, and tap if possible. I haven't found a Lo-Boy style tap made out of stainless steel, but please let me know if you have. Using chrome plated brass taps is a bad idea. In a bar, doing volume, its not likely that any one person consumes that much metal, but at home where a unit may sit for a day (or more, shame on you) the CO2 in suspension (now carbonic acid) and natural acidity of the beer eat away at the chrome and brass. Chrome plating is a nasty business, and if you think they keep there plating materials free from heavy metals because it is a food service item you are sadly mistaken. Chromium by itself is not nice, but its electronegatively similar friend Cadmium really isn't very nice. Neither is the lead found in brass from recycled plumbing parts among other sources, nor is the copper used in making brass. Try and use all stainless steel parts. Lubricate probes and mating surfaces to slow down the scratching and grinding that just accelerates this if you have brass and chrome products. Vent-Matic is the WAY to go for sure on the faucet. Up to the sealing area, my tap is below 40 degrees all the time. I don't have to clean it once a week, and neither will you if you follow these tips. only the screw-off nozzle gets cleaned around here, and that takes about 30 seconds.

Ok enough for tonight.

cheers
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by squirrel » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:28 pm

hmmmm.
I never had a problem with foam.
I dont have a glycol tower.
I think im at 35 degrees.

If your beer is a few months old, it is exponentially more likely to have foam issues from secondary fermentation among other things.


Someone is going to have to sell me on this one.

Side note here, make sure your regulator to tap setup has been purged of oxygen before you tap the keg. Otherwise you are putting a big slug of air into your keg.


Good point for all the noobs......I often see this point overlooked.

I bought this
http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-bee ... 743DT.html

and this comment:
Using chrome plated brass taps is a bad idea..........................


has me slightly concerned. So I will let other members here hopefully steer me in the correct direction.

As per cleaning, I do it once the keg reaches about half empty and when it is empty. I run PBW thru the tower, let it sit in lines for 10 mins and then flush with water. hook up keg and pour a pint. Unless Im suppose to be seeing moss/mold/green fur or something, im guessing this is good enuff cause all looks well to me.
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by webmar » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:50 am

very interesting.

I don't have a problem with foam. i get about 1" of foam with every pour, from the first of the day to the last.

I keep my box at about 38* +/- 4 degrees. I clean the lines and taps after each keg. I have 2 ventmatics and 2 standard taps.

I insulate my tower with foam and that is it.

I think as long as you properly carbonate your beer and have a balance in the beer line, there isn't that big of a problem. My tower is considerably warmer than the keg, but it is only an ounce or two of beer.

I think most people have a problem with foam because of either impatience or imbalance.

By impatience, I mean that people will do the shake and roll method of carbonating. If you just let it sit a week at serving pressure, it will be perfectly carbed.

By imbalance, I mean the length of the beer line is either too long or too short in relation to the serving pressure.

In my experience, temp does not affect the foaming as long as there isn't a wide variance.

Just my opinion.
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by noofus » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:26 am

I have issues with foam but only on the first glass I pour. That one foams I guess since the faucet is a bit warm. It cools quick and any subsequent glasses I pour have no trouble. And the foam doesnt take more than a few moments to subside enough to finish the pour.
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by Mike_A » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:47 am

Thanks for the information, some good points there, but you're missing the most important part, a balanced system. Temperature and pressure don't really matter as long as you have enough flow resistance to the tap. I've found that a fan to cool the tower helped in the summer but now I don't need it.
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Re: Who hates foam?

by P-J » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:24 am

Mercury320 wrote:I can't help but notice ~~~


Excellent points are made here. Please just digest the information this new member has to say and filter that with your experiences and knowledge in your situation. I, personally, look forward to his follow-up and additional information. I think it might help us to really think about the huge number of issues in delivering high quality draft beer.

The posters experience is with commercial kegged beer. Ours is mostly with our own homebrew. There is a difference. However, delivery of kegged beer is much the same and does have issues. Consider the last time that you were at a Pub and had a draft. I sometimes send the brew back and get a bottled brew because the draft was BAD..!! Keep in mind the beer was drawn and server by a supposed 'Pro" ..

"Mercury320" - welcome to the board and I am looking for your contributions.
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by Mercury320 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:48 am

Mike_A wrote:Thanks for the information, some good points there, but you're missing the most important part, a balanced system. Temperature and pressure don't really matter as long as you have enough flow resistance to the tap. I've found that a fan to cool the tower helped in the summer but now I don't need it.


Temperature and pressure are integral to a balanced keg. I basically forgot to mention the art of balancing. Laugh at the art comment if you want, but if anyone here has ever had a keg of New Belgium Fat Tire, they know what an awful beer this truely is to pour corrrectly. I have wondered why this is the worst pouring beer I know of for a long time - traveling to Fort Collins last weekend didn't help, but it was nice to see it foaming up in the tasting room while everything else they poured worked great. Judging on how sweet it is, I'll guess it has something to do with resdiual sugar being high.

But the bottom line is if your tower and tap are not keg temperature, you will have foam. If you have a drier beer, this isn't much of an issue. But if you drink the sweet, it will be a nightmare.
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by Mercury320 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:55 am

noofus wrote:I have issues with foam but only on the first glass I pour. That one foams I guess since the faucet is a bit warm. It cools quick and any subsequent glasses I pour have no trouble. And the foam doesnt take more than a few moments to subside enough to finish the pour.


I'm going to re-write that part on making a Co-Axial cooling fan. I'll take some pictures too. I have to figure out how to host the images somewhere, I know I'm supposed to have hosting through Comcast so we will see how that works. Look for it after Thanksgiving, and you will have condensation on your tap for less then $30, and $0.25 worth of electricity a month.

Glycol loops work great too - but the only pumps that have enough head to push through the coils i've made cost $50+, and draw exponentially more electricty then a computer type box fan. (Fountain pumps).

Bottom line, no matter what a few people have said, if your tap and last foot of line are warm you are growing funk on a daily basis.
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by noofus » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:01 pm

Mercury320 wrote:
noofus wrote:I have issues with foam but only on the first glass I pour. That one foams I guess since the faucet is a bit warm. It cools quick and any subsequent glasses I pour have no trouble. And the foam doesnt take more than a few moments to subside enough to finish the pour.


I'm going to re-write that part on making a Co-Axial cooling fan. I'll take some pictures too. I have to figure out how to host the images somewhere, I know I'm supposed to have hosting through Comcast so we will see how that works. Look for it after Thanksgiving, and you will have condensation on your tap for less then $30, and $0.25 worth of electricity a month.

Glycol loops work great too - but the only pumps that have enough head to push through the coils i've made cost $50+, and draw exponentially more electricty then a computer type box fan. (Fountain pumps).

Bottom line, no matter what a few people have said, if your tap and last foot of line are warm you are growing funk on a daily basis.


My taps are through the door. My lines are 100% contained in the fridge, with a shank through the door and only the tap sitting outside.
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by Mike_A » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:31 pm

Art :D I think it's true though, you need to get experience with your own setup. Most of the foam issues probably come up with beginners just setting up their draft systems.

Mercury320 wrote:Temperature and pressure are integral to a balanced keg.

Yes, but it does not need to be 36-38 degrees as long as it's balanced.

Mercury320 wrote:But the bottom line is if your tower and tap are not keg temperature, you will have foam. If you have a drier beer, this isn't much of an issue. But if you drink the sweet, it will be a nightmare.

I don't see how the type of beer matters as long as the volume of CO2 in the beer is the same.

Mercury320 wrote:Bottom line, no matter what a few people have said, if your tap and last foot of line are warm you are growing funk on a daily basis.

I don't buy this, warm beer will not spoil.
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by noofus » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:02 pm

Mike_A wrote:
Mercury320 wrote:Bottom line, no matter what a few people have said, if your tap and last foot of line are warm you are growing funk on a daily basis.

I don't buy this, warm beer will not spoil.


Agreed - if it hasnt grown an infection yet, it wont in the lines.

Unless of course you dont sanitize your lines prior to using them - but why work so hard to make a good batch of beer only to be lazy for the 2 minutes it takes to dunk the line in star-san?

Unless of course those with commercial kegs in ther kegerators dont bother sanitizing...then you would be growing all sorts of nasties. I just dont think anyone here is in that boat.
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by P-J » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:35 pm

noofus wrote: ~~~ Unless of course those with commercial kegs in ther kegerators dont bother sanitizing...then you would be growing all sorts of nasties. I just dont think anyone here is in that boat.

Great point! That is the most common problem at beer pubs. They throw the new keg on line without any regard to sanitary conditions, cleaning lines and/or taps. Plus most of the brew is hyper filtered....

Ok, Ok.. I started to get started.. Sorry.

Edit: I messed up and did the quote wrong. Sorry "noofus" - My bad. Fixed now.
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by Beezil v2.0 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:02 pm

By impatience, I mean that people will do the shake and roll method of carbonating. If you just let it sit a week at serving pressure, it will be perfectly carbed.


I use this method and dont have a problem. Carb one night, drink it the next :wink:
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by speed » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:28 pm

mercury320 now we need to get you started brewing....
nice points, welcome to the forum.
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by Mercury320 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:11 pm

speed wrote:mercury320 now we need to get you started brewing....
nice points, welcome to the forum.


After taking a look at all the Huppmann equipment at New Belgium, I'm not sure I can just brew a batch of beer. I'm trying to think of how big of a sheet metal brake a friend of mine had, and how I am going to have to learn to weld stainless better. If I can't brew 10 barrells at a time, I'm not working hard enough. But then I have to store 20 kegs.. ugh. See its a bad cycle. Next thing I have sold me soul to brew beer that is only half as good as it was supposed to be in order to sell enough to pay the bills, and then I get fined by the county for running a business in my CR1 zoning, and oh boy.

Yeah ok, so I think I might be interested, but only if I just head first. I can make a very big stainless tank with the brake and TIG I have now, how about starting with a 1 barrell setup. I have a 3.4 acre yard, so what do I need? Two stainless tanks, one to cook and one to lauter? I have tons of old air conditioners in my yard to my a flash cooler, and I know where to get pumps to move them between the tanks. What about the fermenter after the flash cooler?

Got any information on a setup this size? Seems to be plastic jugs or 160 hectalitre monsters. What about just a barrell at a time?
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