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Decocation Mash Effeciency

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mashweasel

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Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:52 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Absolutely. I would say that the Kesselmaisch is probably the best way to get into decoction and actually does a really really good job of doing what more complex schedules do. Simply its a single decoction done quite differently that mimics a double decoction effect. It basically came about for breweries that were built as decoction breweries with the extra equipment and such. All one needs is a direct-fired Mash/lauter tun and a boil kettle. Ill give you a very simple outline and a grist of which is works very well.

Helles
OG: 1045
BU : 20

Malt: 100% continental pils of your choice, I would make sure and do 50:50 blend of two different types
Hops: 25bu in a 90 and 30min addition of Noble anything or Saazer, Sterling,etc
Boil: at least 90min
Yeast: dry 34/70 - 2dry packets/ 5 gal

Mash:
Einmaischen 127F
- Rest 40 minutes ~1.15qt/lb

1st Sacc rest
- infuse to 149F (~1.4qt/lb)
- rest 15min
- draw off the thin liquid portion (dunnmaisch) until the whole mash resembles moderately loose oatmeal (dickmaisch)
- keep the dunnmaisch at 149F or as close as possible

Decoction
- boil the dickmaisch 30min, you won't be stopping for any rests in between.
- a key point is that you don't try to heat this up to fast

2nd sacc rest
- infuse to ~162F by combining the dick and dunnmaisch back in the lautertun
- rest 45min

Mashout
- direct heat to 172-180

*Optional - Lauter decoction
- instead of mashout
- works better than direct heat for me
- pull about 1/3 of the dunnmaisch about 35min into the 2nd sacc rest
- boil it until it breaks ~9-12min
- add back to mash to bring to mashout temp of ~172-180F

Whirlpool: 30min

Chill to 49F

Ferment
- ferment ~1 week at 49F
- 2 days at 60F for diacetyl rest
- lager at 32F for 4-6 weeks

This is a very simple Helles recipe that gets all its character, using a decent pils malt, from the technique. NO Dextrin malt, NO crystal malt and definitely no bullshit Vienna malt.

This is the exact beer I entered in this past nationals second round that they said was 'too malty'...at 1043 it was. They said this for all my lagers even though the gravities are always at the very low end. Just FYI.

Give it a shot if you want, or not. Email me with any questions you may have.
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep


Homer Simpson - 'Homer no function beer well without.'
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Kaiser

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Location: Northeastern Massachusetts

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:13 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

I have used variations of this schedule and it is an elegant way of boiling as much grain as possible including the starch that is generally washed into the mash liquid when scooping the decoction out of the mash tun.

The long protein rest looks interesting.

Kai
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SenorPantalones

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Post Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:37 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

mashweasel wrote:Absolutely. I would say that the Kesselmaisch is probably the best way to get into decoction and actually does a really really good job of doing what more complex schedules do. Simply its a single decoction done quite differently that mimics a double decoction effect. It basically came about for breweries that were built as decoction breweries with the extra equipment and such. All one needs is a direct-fired Mash/lauter tun and a boil kettle. Ill give you a very simple outline and a grist of which is works very well.

Helles
OG: 1045
BU : 20

Malt: 100% continental pils of your choice, I would make sure and do 50:50 blend of two different types
Hops: 25bu in a 90 and 30min addition of Noble anything or Saazer, Sterling,etc
Boil: at least 90min
Yeast: dry 34/70 - 2dry packets/ 5 gal

Mash:
Einmaischen 127F
- Rest 40 minutes ~1.15qt/lb

1st Sacc rest
- infuse to 149F (~1.4qt/lb)
- rest 15min
- draw off the thin liquid portion (dunnmaisch) until the whole mash resembles moderately loose oatmeal (dickmaisch)
- keep the dunnmaisch at 149F or as close as possible

Decoction
- boil the dickmaisch 30min, you won't be stopping for any rests in between.
- a key point is that you don't try to heat this up to fast

2nd sacc rest
- infuse to ~162F by combining the dick and dunnmaisch back in the lautertun
- rest 45min

Mashout
- direct heat to 172-180

*Optional - Lauter decoction
- instead of mashout
- works better than direct heat for me
- pull about 1/3 of the dunnmaisch about 35min into the 2nd sacc rest
- boil it until it breaks ~9-12min
- add back to mash to bring to mashout temp of ~172-180F

Whirlpool: 30min

Chill to 49F

Ferment
- ferment ~1 week at 49F
- 2 days at 60F for diacetyl rest
- lager at 32F for 4-6 weeks

This is a very simple Helles recipe that gets all its character, using a decent pils malt, from the technique. NO Dextrin malt, NO crystal malt and definitely no bullshit Vienna malt.

This is the exact beer I entered in this past nationals second round that they said was 'too malty'...at 1043 it was. They said this for all my lagers even though the gravities are always at the very low end. Just FYI.

Give it a shot if you want, or not. Email me with any questions you may have.


That's awesome, thanks Kris. That's definitely different than the way I've done decoctions in the past. I tend to enjoy my lagers on the malty side even though it may not be exactly what most people are looking for.
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mashweasel

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Location: St. Paul

Post Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:57 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Most people think they are smarter than they actually are...
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep


Homer Simpson - 'Homer no function beer well without.'
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Brewhobby

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Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

blatz wrote:
Denny wrote:
ScottieBoy wrote:Hey Denny. I enjoyed hearing you on the BN the other night discussing the pros and mostly cons of decoction.


Thanks! Believe it or not, I've gotten some emails from people who didn't agree with me! ;)


hmmm...brewhobby, kaiser, mashweasel...??? :P :wink:


I heard my name, what did I miss?? :lol:
Primary- Czech Pilsner, IIPA
Secondary- IIPA, BVIP, Doppelbock, Baltic Porter
Kegged- A whole lotta beer
On Tap- Helles, Pale Ale, Rye IPA
Next Up- BVIP, IPA
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ryan6458

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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:00 am

Location: Boise, ID

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:01 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Good to see that you're still alive! :lol: :cheers:
Compare your lives to mine and then kill yourselves! -Bender
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jasper

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Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:01 pm

Location: amraP, Ohio

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:07 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

I bought NB Octoberfest Kit. I was thinking of trying my 1st decoction mash on this recipe,is
this a good kit to learn this mash technique on? Worth it?
Kegged 10 Gals of Hefe
Primary 10 Gals of Hefe II
Getting ready for some Blind Faith w/ Wyeast 3522
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Denny

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Location: Eugene OR

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Brewhobby wrote:I heard my name, what did I miss?? :lol:


Where the heck ya been, man?
Life begins at 60....1.060, that is.

www.dennybrew.com
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blatz

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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:29 am

Location: Florida

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Denny wrote:
Brewhobby wrote:I heard my name, what did I miss?? :lol:


Where the heck ya been, man?


+1 hey! we were starting to get worried about you man! good to see you back...
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Brewhobby

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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:33 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Denny wrote:
Brewhobby wrote:I heard my name, what did I miss?? :lol:


Where the heck ya been, man?


Been busy brewing, mostly decoctions. :wink: :lol:
Primary- Czech Pilsner, IIPA
Secondary- IIPA, BVIP, Doppelbock, Baltic Porter
Kegged- A whole lotta beer
On Tap- Helles, Pale Ale, Rye IPA
Next Up- BVIP, IPA
<<

Brewhobby

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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:34 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

ryan6458 wrote:Good to see that you're still alive! :lol: :cheers:


Yep, still alive, and still brewing. :cheers:
Primary- Czech Pilsner, IIPA
Secondary- IIPA, BVIP, Doppelbock, Baltic Porter
Kegged- A whole lotta beer
On Tap- Helles, Pale Ale, Rye IPA
Next Up- BVIP, IPA
<<

BeaverBrewer

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Posts: 462

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:00 pm

Location: Rive Gauche, Kanuckistan

Post Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:04 pm

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

I definitely don't have the chops at brewing to back up my opinions on decoction (there - I'm among the first to admit it), but I just wanted to make a couple of small points:

- with respect to the BN program, I didn't have the impression that Palmer agreed, at least not wholeheartedly, that decoction is unnecessary. Could be just my read, but I think I noticed a few silences that said to me: "yeah, well your experiments can say what they want, but I'm still going to do a decoction when I want to."
- Denny, I heard your description of your experiment and it sounds very very solid. The only question I have, (and I work in a scientific field where bias is a constant concern), is: did the participants know that you were looking at whether or not decoction is better? Because it probably makes (check that - it MIGHT make) a difference in the outcomes. For instance, if you think that decoction is going to make the wort fuller or darker or whatever your preconception of the impact is, you will make your choices based on which one meets some or all of your opinions about decoction. On the other hand, if the blinding goes even further, such that as many objective criteria as possible are measured: colour, efficiency, attenuation, etc, in addition to the fully blinded analysis of your judges, you might have a clearer picture. Not knocking your experiment at all, but bias is REALLY tough to eliminate.

Last point: I have no idea of the impact of decoction on my brewing. I'm not going to say it has made anything better or worse or by what criteria. But I've done a couple of decoctions now and I don't find it to be the big, arduous endeavour people make it out to be. The first one was the "enhanced double decoction" as described by Kai on his video, and yeah, that was quite long, but that's because I maxed every single rest because I didn't have the means to measure pH or check for starch, so I tried to play it safe. I've since done a simpler scheme and it probably wasn't much more than an hour, if that, longer than a step infusion scheme. Again, not saying it's any better or worse, just not that much harder.
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wobdee

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Location: Lake Wissota

Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Reviving an old thread. Did Mashweasle ever post his findings in his decoction expirements? I can't find anything and his expirements sounds very interesting.
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wobdee

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Location: Lake Wissota

Post Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:26 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

Bump
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Denny

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Post Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:52 am

Re: Decocation Mash Effeciency

wobdee wrote:Bump


I don't think he did any. I have posted my results many times.
Life begins at 60....1.060, that is.

www.dennybrew.com
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