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Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

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The Brewer

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Post Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:08 am

Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

I just recently decided to make my first yeast starter from a yeast slant of mine. I am making a 900ml starter that will be divided between two batches of wort. I think I may have made a rookie mistake though, instead of stepping up the amount of starter up to 900ml as the yeast becomes active I just inoculated the 900ml.

Will this still work considering the quantity of starter wort and the small sample of yeast I took from my yeast slant?
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nyakavt

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

I doubt this is going to work, or if it does you'll have a load of contaminants in the final product. You need to start much smaller, maybe 10 mL of sterile wort and step it up several times. I wouldn't go more that 8X bigger per step since there is a limit to the amount of yeast you can grow with a given amount of wort, plus you don't want the yeast to take too long to ferment out the starter for risk of other microbes taking hold. Kai has a good guide on his site:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... om_a_Plate
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mashweasel

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:47 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

I pick one colony and add it to 6ml. then that to 50ml, then that to 150, 500 and then 1000 if needed...rarely.
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
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brewmichigan

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:50 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

mashweasel wrote:I pick one colony and add it to 6ml. then that to 50ml, then that to 150, 500 and then 1000 if needed...rarely.


What do you mean rarely for the 1000ml? How do you propagate enough yeast if you're only stepping up to 500ml?
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mashweasel

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

I mean rarely do I need that much yeast. If you propagate yeast correctly you will have more than enough. the biggest thing I find that helps my propagation and subsequent fermentations is the addition of a little zinc to the starter as with each propagation the internal yeast zinc supply bottoms out. Very very technical seminar at this years NHC about it. Missed nearly everyone in the room by a mile.
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep


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Kaiser

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:03 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

Kristen,

how much yeast do you get out of 500 ml. I need to use 2000 ml as the
last step to have enough yeast for 5 gal of lager fermentation. And this is with nutrient and constant air.

Kai
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mashweasel

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:22 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

I have a large stock of yeast but nearly all of them are ale yeasts that arent commercially available. I've found that nearly every single lager yeast around the best lager breweries can be bought. Its the 'special' ale yeasts that have neat character. The funny thing is after collecting lager yeast from all these small german breweries last time there I got back, froze them all down and found out they all got their yeast from a big brewery. :(

Usually when I propagate yeast I don't use the first propagation for my desired beer. Many many many brewers experience and articles have been written showing that the first beer out of propagation lacks the quality wanted. They keep this and blend it back with subsequent beers. I'll make a simple bitter or something. remember that yeast can and will trap isohumulones so reusing yeast from a bitter beer can cause problems. Kaiser, you are right, If I did a lager strain I would use more volume from propagation but I still wouldn't make my desired beer. Maybe a simple tasty German shankbier lager that I could get the yeast were I want.

I use a shaker, rather than a stir plate, which is temperature controlled so I have no problem getting aeration or keeping the temp under control. I also find that I get better results if I do two 500ml propagations at the same time than just the one. I'll get about 5E10 yeast per 500ml which is about 100 bill combined. Its usually about 12-16 hours per stage.

if you guys haven't seen this, its a good source of amateur 'guessing' at yeast number:
Image

It gives you the approximate number of yeast based on % volume. This case the tubes are 50ml.
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep


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Kaiser

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:51 am

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

mashweasel wrote:I have a large stock of yeast but nearly all of them are ale yeasts that arent commercially available. I've found that nearly every single lager yeast around the best lager breweries can be bought. Its the 'special' ale yeasts that have neat character. The funny thing is after collecting lager yeast from all these small german breweries last time there I got back, froze them all down and found out they all got their yeast from a big brewery. :(


So you got a bunch of 34/70 (WLP830) ;) I know that there are a number of Weissbier breweries that use their primary fermentation strain in the bottle and that you can build starters with these Weissbiers. When I go back I’ll bring home some of them but I think I may be bringing home a bunch of W68 (WY 3068) and nothing special. I keep yeast b/c I’m cheap and that’s why I have a collection of commercial yeasts and nothing special.

Usually when I propagate yeast I don't use the first propagation for my desired beer. Many many many brewers experience and articles have been written showing that the first beer out of propagation lacks the quality wanted.


I have heard this as well but not experienced myself. So far I conducted one experiment to show the difference by I didn’t note anything different that I would contribute to the yeast. So far many of my best beer have been made with freshly propagated yeast. Currently I’m also trying to keep fermentation conditions the same between subsequent batches which means I’ll propagate yeast the same way for these beers.


[quopte]
if you guys haven't seen this, its a good source of amateur 'guessing' at yeast number:
[/quote]

I’m also a proponent of judging yeast amount by sediment volume. Few of us have a hemocytometer to actually count yeast cells, but letting the yeast settle in a graduated cylinder can give you an idea how much yeast you are actually pitching. I have been looking for a large (2000ml) cylindrical settling vessel but haven’t found one yet.

Kai
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mashweasel

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:24 pm

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

No need to have a big one. Just get a small glass one, 50ml, shake your big flask up so its equally distributed and then fill up the 50ml. When it settles, extrapolate.
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep


Homer Simpson - 'Homer no function beer well without.'
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Denny

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

mashweasel wrote:Very very technical seminar at this years NHC about it. Missed nearly everyone in the room by a mile.


Not me, buddy! Not only was it relevant, fascinating info, it explained to me why some stuff I had been trying recently was actually working!
Life begins at 60....1.060, that is.

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mashweasel

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:33 pm

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

I thought it was great also. The slack jaws and blank stares told another story! :)
Egészségedre,

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Grand Master Judge
http://www.bjcp.org
http://www.bjcp.org/cep


Homer Simpson - 'Homer no function beer well without.'
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Kaiser

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:48 pm

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

mashweasel wrote:No need to have a big one. Just get a small glass one, 50ml, shake your big flask up so its equally distributed and then fill up the 50ml. When it settles, extrapolate.


You know what, I just learned something and I don’t know why I haven’t been thinking about that before. You’re correct. I can just evenly suspend all the yeast I have and let it settle in a small Imhoff cone (the have them at cynmar) and take it from there. One of the problems I was trying to solve was reducing the time it takes between being done with the propagation in the carboy and getting all the yeast settled in a 250ml graduated cylinder. So far I had to settle the yeast in the carboy, a 2000ml Erlenmeyer and the graduated cylinder, Now settling in the carboy after pulling a representative sample should suffice which should reduce the time during which the yeast is dormant and looses viability.

There was also another thread where the OP was looking for your presentation (I assume it was yours): viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76326

Is it posted somewhere or should we wait for it to appear on the AHA site?

Kai
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Denny

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Post Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: Propagating Yeast From Slants Issue

Kai, the presentation at NHC was by MariBeth Raines.
Life begins at 60....1.060, that is.

www.dennybrew.com

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