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Pilsner with Ale yeast?

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58hwy

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 5:51 am

Pilsner with Ale yeast?

I am currently unable to make a lager. However, I came across the following recipe in Beer Smith that looks mighty tasty (if needed, recipe is below). My question is, what kind of ale yeast can/should I use to make this pilsner similar to the intended profile - or at least create a tasty alternative? Thanks.

96 oz. Light LME
32 oz. Extra Light DME
16 oz. Crystal 20
1 oz. Cluster (45 min.)
1 oz. Hallertauer (45 min.)
1 oz. Hallertauer (5 min.)
1 lb. Honey
Bohemian Lager yeast (Wyeast #2124)

I plan to convert this recipe to a partial mash.
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majorvices

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 6:31 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

Use us-05 and ferment it as cold as you can - high 50s/very low 60s. It will be like a golden ale, lacking the lager quality, but should be a good, clean, refreshing beer.
- Keith Y.
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majorvices

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

I would also question that amount of crystal malt. I'd go 1/2 pound, or better yet, none at all.
- Keith Y.
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ryan6458

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 7:59 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

58hwy wrote:I plan to convert this recipe to a partial mash.


Make sure you use German Pilsner malt. It will help a lot in making your beer more lager-like.
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damntheman

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

I agree with the previous posts. Try to find some pilsner LME and also use some pilsner malt in your partial mash. I also think you should drop the crystal malt completely. Traditional pilsners are just pilsner malt and hops. US-05 will make a pretty good pseudo-lager, so I would go with that as well.
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58hwy

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

majorvices wrote:Use us-05 and ferment it as cold as you can - high 50s/very low 60s. It will be like a golden ale, lacking the lager quality, but should be a good, clean, refreshing beer.


My kegerator is set at 40 degrees and since it is an older fridge with the freezer inside the fridge compartment, I cannot get it much higher than that.

What would be the results of using US-05 and fermenting at 70 or so? I am not looking for a true pilsner (obviously since I can't lager). I do have an immersion chiller so I should be able to pitch at around 65 and keep fermentation near that with a swamp cooler.

Also, thanks for the suggestions on the Crystal and German Pilsner Malt.
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majorvices

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Post Tue May 19, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

Just try to ferment it as cool as you can. Allot of people say they can even ferment lagers in swamp coolers. Mid to high 60s would be alright with US-05. That strain can handle fairly warm temps and stay clean.
- Keith Y.
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58hwy

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 5:06 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

majorvices wrote:Just try to ferment it as cool as you can. Allot of people say they can even ferment lagers in swamp coolers. Mid to high 60s would be alright with US-05. That strain can handle fairly warm temps and stay clean.


I need some more advice. I changed the recipe using Beer Smith:

4 lbs Extra Light DME
4 lbs German Pilsner malt
1 lb Crystal 20 (I wanted to leave this in to give some extra malt and color)
1 lb Honey
1 oz. Cluster (45)
1 oz. Halleratauer (15)
1 oz. Halleratauer (5)

First, I'd like your opinion on how this might turn out. Second, is if I use WLP001 instead of the US-05 and ferment around 70 degrees, what could I expect?

I appreciate your time and opinion.

Patrick
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majorvices

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

First of all, IMO crystal malt is totally inappropriate in a pilsner - except in the case of a bo-pils where some cara-pils can be used for body and head retention. That said, I can see having some in this beer if you really want - but a whole pound per 5 gallons os far too much. No more than 1/2 pound. You want this beer to be dry, and the honey is going to help allot, but too much crystal malt is going to give you a cloyingly sweet character. I think you will like the results much better with no more than a 1/2 pound. Or, resist the temptation to add it at all - which is what I would do. I like my beers on the dry side - especially my "lagers". And especially this time of the year when the whether warms.

The difference between WLP001 and US-05 is going to be minimal. The one big benefit of US-05 is you won;t have to make a starter and the bigger pitch of yeast should restrain the esters. I still think you should do you best to keep the fermentation temp in the low 60s for the first couple of days. I would buy a bag of ice, immerse my fermenter in an ice water batch until it is in the high 50s or very low 60s and then aerate and pitch and try to hold a low temp the first few days. the first 48-72 hours are the crucial time for fermentation temp control.

One other thing, I don't really care for a huge flavor/aroma hallertauer addition. I think a 1/2 oz of hallertauer at 5 minutes would be plenty - and no 15 min addition. I would also probably not use Cluster as a bittering hop in this instance. Save it for ales. You should use Hallertauer or, better yet, Magnum. Keep all the hops noble or of noble lineage. What are the IBUs and OG of the recipe?
- Keith Y.
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Ein Prosit, der gemutlichkeit!
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babalu87

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 7:26 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

majorvices wrote:Just try to ferment it as cool as you can. Allot of people say they can even ferment lagers in swamp coolers. Mid to high 60s would be alright with US-05. That strain can handle fairly warm temps and stay clean.


Hi there :wink:

58hwy
Behold, the swamp cooler.
Ice bottles (juice/soda etc) changed out each AM and PM and before bed

Image
Jeff

On draught:Hallertau Ale, IIPA, Bitter, Stout
Primary: Hefeweizen, Berliner Weisse, Imperial Stout ,Apfelwine
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58hwy

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 7:53 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

Major- My Beer Smith is on my home computer. I'll tweek the recipe using your suggestions and get the IBU's back to you later tonight. In my mind, I'm shooting for something in the neighborhood of a Sam Adams Imperial Pilsner. This recipe may not be in the same zip code, but I'm looking for something similar.

Babalu- I've been saving empty water bottles for this very thing. I figure to have 10 and swap them out every AM and PM. I love the simplicity of the swamp cooler and it's time I got off my lazy butt and hook it up.

Thanks to both for your advice.
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The Professor

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

58hwy wrote:
majorvices wrote:I need some more advice. I changed the recipe using Beer Smith:

4 lbs Extra Light DME
4 lbs German Pilsner malt
1 lb Crystal 20 (I wanted to leave this in to give some extra malt and color)
1 lb Honey
1 oz. Cluster (45)
1 oz. Halleratauer (15)
1 oz. Halleratauer (5)

First, I'd like your opinion on how this might turn out. Second, is if I use WLP001 instead of the US-05 and ferment around 70 degrees, what could I expect?

I appreciate your time and opinion.

Patrick

You'll get a hundred different opinions on this if you ask a hundred brewers.
My take:
I think the recipe looks good...as far as authenticity goes, an "Imperial Pilsener", not being a traditional "style", is wide open to interpretation as far as I'm concerned. Besides, the final result is what's important; it's _your_ beer.
I would agree however that 1 lb of crystal is a bit too much for what I think you're going after here. Half that is a good limit, but I would even just use 1/4 lb. If you want extra malt character, I'd use another lb of the pilsner malt or even a small amount of light Munich...just enough to round things out a bit. The honey will add nice character and some octane, but don't be surprised if it takes slightly longer to ferment...that's been my experience, but it could just be an eccentricity of my house yeast (and I'm generally not in a hurry anyway).

As far as the hops go, I'd stick with what you have (again, everyone has their own preferences). I'm biased because I'm a big fan of Clusters, and I think that it works in any beer very nicely as a bittering hop. That 15 minute addition of Hallertauers will offer a nice hop flavor. The 5 minute addition is good, or you can even toss them in at flameout.

All in all I think you have the makings of an interesting brew. The 05 is clean and neutral, and at the lower or moderate end of the working temps it will give you a very lager/pilsner like result especially if you cold age the finished brew for a month or so.

looking forward to a report back with your results!.
Last edited by The Professor on Wed May 20, 2009 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LStaff

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 8:04 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

I think you are better off with something like wyeast 1007 than us-05. I have tried making pseudo lagers with us-05 in the 55F-60F range and they just come out really boring - and attenuate too much if you don't use a bunch of carapils/caramel malts.
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babalu87

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 8:15 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

58hwy wrote:Babalu- I've been saving empty water bottles for this very thing. I figure to have 10 and swap them out every AM and PM. I love the simplicity of the swamp cooler and it's time I got off my lazy butt and hook it up.

Thanks to both for your advice.


Do a "dry" run with the swamp cooler to see how many water bottles you'll need.
Just put your fermenter with 5 gallons of water in it, then add water to about half way up and add some ice bottles.
Give it a few hours and check the temp, that will be how many are need to keep beer at or near that temp.
Keep in mind beer warms during fermentation but the volume of water/ice in the swamp cooler keeps it at bay.
Depending on basement temps and whether I am using that tub or my big cooler I need anywhere from 1 or 2 to 3 or 4

It takes a bit of tinkering but once you get the system down it works fine.
I can do lagers in a 70+ degree basement using a big cooler with a homemade lid on it, see here:

Image

and with the ghetto-fabulous lid

Image

Works for me and I dont have to have a fridge dedicated for fermentation........yet ;)
Jeff

On draught:Hallertau Ale, IIPA, Bitter, Stout
Primary: Hefeweizen, Berliner Weisse, Imperial Stout ,Apfelwine
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majorvices

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Post Wed May 20, 2009 8:49 am

Re: Pilsner with Ale yeast?

Wait a second ... Imperial Pils changes allot! I was not looking at the extract quantities but was assuming this was a pilsner, not an imperial pils! If this is for 5 gallons and the OG (looking at my recipe calc.) is going to be up around 1.080 then the hops would be fine and the only thing I would change is the crystal. I would stress that if this is an imperial pils you will want the beer to be dry! A whole pound of Crsytal malt will be working against you.

I'll just add then when posting recipes it is a good idea to mention what your intended starting volume is along with OG and IBUs. Makes it allot easier to understand, especially for dumb ass AG brewers who havn't brewed extract in almost 15 years. :) Plus, I have a tendency to make assumptions based on style and post titles. :wink: IOW I don;t really consider an Imperial Pilsner a style - I was kind of shooting you in the wrong direction based on assumption. My bad.

BTW: WY1007 is a great suggestion. If you do go that route I would stress you will need a very large starter - at least the slurry from a gallons starter. For an IMPY (pseudo) Pils US-05 should work fine IMO and you won;t need a starter.
- Keith Y.
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Ein Prosit, der gemutlichkeit!
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