Roasted Barley VS. Black Patent Malt . . . VS. Carafa, etc.

Out of curiousity, which dark grain(s) do you prefer in your stout(s)?

And why? What do they add as opposed to the other grains, or what do other grains lack that you find yourself looking for. I know that style guidelines practically dictate Roasted Barley, and I love the stuff, but screw style guidelines. What do you guys think?

-Cheers

Actually I am working my way through that list. I have tried Chocolate and Black patent. I'm still forming my opinions. However the chocolate didn't seem to have as much of a bitter aftertaste as the black patent did. Of course that could have been due to my brewing skills at that time.

. . . the chocolate didn't seem to have as much of a bitter aftertaste as the black patent did.

Thanks Brewnchew. I've read mixed reviews in regards to that. I've read people say chocolate was more bitter in their beer when it was the primary dark grain and that BPM was a sweeter malt when used properly (loaded term I suppose, but they usually meant they cold steeped it, used it in the last 10 minutes of the mash & sparge, or used a de-bittered black malt).

I've also read that Black Patent has worked better for some people in English-style Stouts. His claim (this was from one person, but he seems to brew quite a few stouts) was that the Black Malt "lets the residual sweetness of the beer come through, and non-roasted flavors linger on the tongue a bit more" but advised me to use approximately 25% less (about 12 oz. or so per 5-gallon batch) that roasted barley based on its well-documented sharper flavor.

Well, keep 'em coming. I'm also curious how Roasted Barley and Black Patent Malt work in conjunction with each other, if anybody wants to field that topic.

-Cheers

I don't like black patent. Someone suggested that I 1) add it late to the mash or 2) mill half and add the other half unmilled.

I like roasted and chocolate malts myself. No experience with Carafa.

I prefer porters over stouts myself and in that case I would have answered carafa. (the only dark grains I can get hold of here except for roasted barley).

Roasted barely does a very good job on getting the right flavor in a dry stout for me. Imperial stout, sweet stout and other stouts would probebly do better with a mix of dark carafa and roasted barley though.

Other than that I can highy recommend pale chocolatea malt in the grainbill of almost any dark beer. Adds some complexity without standing out to much from the rest of the beer.

I voted for Roasted Barley but I actually use a combination of roasted barley and chocolate. That wasn't one of the options in the poll.

I voted for Roasted Barley but I actually use a combination of roasted barley and chocolate. That wasn't one of the options in the poll.

Sorry. "Other" was thrown in there as sort of a catch-all in case I missed any obvious combinations, and to keep the number of options limited.

Seems like we have a lot of Roasted Barley and Chocolate Malt supporters. If any of you use BPM, I'd be curious to hear what exactly it brings to the table that is different than the Roasted Barley.

Also, is there a commercial brand that will give me a good idea of a finished product that uses Black Malt?

-Cheers

Editor's note: I thought I put an "Other" option for this poll; sorry about that. Guess I was wrong. I did think about it though. Must have just slipped my attention when I was writing the poll.

I'm a roasted barley and chocolate man myself, when it comes to stout. It was my understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that BP malt was usually used for porters. The line between the two is continually being blurred big porters and stouts but this difference is the one that I personally use to distinguish between them. Hope this helps.

Roast Barley is definitely the go if you are trying to reproduce a modern Irish stout, but beyond that any of the dark roasts are a possibility.

I believe Courage Imperial Russian Stout is brewed with Black Malt.

Also, is there a commercial brand that will give me a good idea of a finished product that uses Black Malt?

Not really a stout but Summit Winter uses black malt.

It was my understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that BP malt was usually used for porters.

It depends whom you ask, and whom you believe. From what I've read, Roasted Barley or Black Malt can make your beer a Stout, but that Porters historically got their darker color from the Amber and Brown Malts. I think of Robust Porters as lighter stouts, which is pretty much the definition given to porters after the invention of stouts.

Of course, then I've heard the argument that beers with smaller amounts of roasted grains (e.g. Beamish and Murphy's Stouts) are really Porters that got lumped into Irish Stouts simply due to 1) geographical location and 2) the inclusion of Roasted Barley.

Ray Daniel's book (the only one I've got that has a history of Stouts, hence the only one I can truly reference) points out that between 1820 and 1900, Guinness "provide[d] further evidence of the management's willingness to change with the times . . ." by, amont other things, a "rapid adoption of black malt" and the "elimination of brown malt from porter and stout formulations" (Daniels, Ray, "Designing Great Beers" pg. 308). Based on that, and the rave reviews I've read about Amber and Brown malts, I would exclude BPM and Roasted Barley from a Porter recipe (If included in the grist, I'd probably just consider it a stout) and use amber and brown malts instead for Porters, and consider any beer with a significant amount of Roasted Barley or Black Patent Malt a stout (with exceptions for slight use as a coloring agent or something where it obviously fell in line with the guidelines of another style).

Of course, Porter is effectively a revivalist style of beer, and there is SOOOOOOOOOO much blurring between Porters and Stouts, that it is probably impossible to say for sure unless you're going by the style guidelines. Even that is far from definitive since those rules don't necessarily count when you aren't trying to win a contest.

By the way, if I'm wrong or if there are other prominent theories about Porters a/o Stouts, I'd be curious to hear about it/them.

-Cheers

It was my understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that BP malt was usually used for porters.

It depends whom you ask, and whom you believe. From what I've read, Roasted Barley or Black Malt can make your beer a Stout, but that Porters historically got their darker color from the Amber and Brown Malts. I think of Robust Porters as lighter stouts, which is pretty much the definition given to porters after the invention of stouts.

Of course, then I've heard the argument that beers with smaller amounts of roasted grains (e.g. Beamish and Murphy's Stouts) are really Porters that got lumped into Irish Stouts simply due to 1) geographical location and 2) the inclusion of Roasted Barley.

Ray Daniel's book (the only one I've got that has a history of Stouts, hence the only one I can truly reference) points out that between 1820 and 1900, Guinness "provide[d] further evidence of the management's willingness to change with the times . . ." by, amont other things, a "rapid adoption of black malt" and the "elimination of brown malt from porter and stout formulations" (Daniels, Ray, "Designing Great Beers" pg. 308). Based on that, and the rave reviews I've read about Amber and Brown malts, I would exclude BPM and Roasted Barley from a Porter recipe (If included in the grist, I'd probably just consider it a stout) and use amber and brown malts instead for Porters, and consider any beer with a significant amount of Roasted Barley or Black Patent Malt a stout (with exceptions for slight use as a coloring agent or something where it obviously fell in line with the guidelines of another style).

Of course, Porter is effectively a revivalist style of beer, and there is SOOOOOOOOOO much blurring between Porters and Stouts, that it is probably impossible to say for sure unless you're going by the style guidelines. Even that is far from definitive since those rules don't necessarily count when you aren't trying to win a contest.

By the way, if I'm wrong or if there are other prominent theories about Porters a/o Stouts, I'd be curious to hear about it/them.

-Cheers

It seems like the porter that you're talking about that is sans any kind of dark roasted malt/grain or just for color is the brown porter and not the robust. Am I correct in assuming that darker malts/grains and higher alcohol are the differentiating charachteristics of the two types of porter?
Not trying to be a jerk just curious?

It seems like the porter that you're talking about that is sans any kind of dark roasted malt/grain or just for color is the brown porter and not the robust.

Correct. The Robust Porter would be closer to the modern-day stout.

Am I correct in assuming that darker malts/grains and higher alcohol are the differentiating charachteristics of the two types of porter?
Not trying to be a jerk just curious?

I'm far from an expert, but my understanding is that the roasted grain and slightly higher gravity are what make a "Robust Porter" different from a "Brown Porter." The Robust just seems like a Stout with a light hand when it comes to the dark/roasted grains. But there's so much overlap, that you can literally find historical examples of "Porters" that fit all of the criteria for a modern-day Stout, as well as historical examples of Stouts that fit in pretty closely to the modern-day Porters (especially the Robust categories). And no, I don't/didn't think you were a jerk for asking.

I just focused more on the Brown Porter Style (which I have yet to brew) for one because it seems a bit overlooked, for another because I've read rave reviews about Brown & Amber Malts, and finally because I know if I was to make a Robust Porter, my roasted malt addiction would take over and it would end up an FES or Imperial with five kinds of roasted grains. For me, any Robust Porter would end up a Stout regardless of the best intentions. The poor beer wouldn't stand a chance.

-Cheers