Inspired by a thread and a need myself, I made a calculator for Sake:
I figured out a doubling formula that can take the number of steps and total goal of something and create an additions schedule so that sub-totals at each step will be double of the one preceding it.
Dray’s Google Sheet Sake Additions Calculator
Although a moto isn’t stepped, support is added for that. Essentially 2 different ratios are used for moto and moromi, so I added them. They can be changed.
Add the amount for the koji, and the amount of rice and water is shown. All three inputs are allowed to figure out the other two.
All items are entered in pounds unless noted. It will also calculate approx. volume of water after process so an idea can be made as to how much liquid will be available taking in consideration moisture percentages and pressing efficiency.
Free to use: Download an OpenDocs format or xlsx then upload it to your own google drive. I’ll make an interactive web-site sometime for it.
It also takes the doubling idea, but inverts it for determining the time between additions. Essentially you can the the sheet 4 days are going to be used for the first 4 additions. After the first addition, 48hrs will need to pass, then after the 2nd 24 hrs and for the last step, I divided it up in half so 12 hrs later the last addition is added, then rest for 12hrs.
This is the default 3 steps, 4 day main ferment start schedule.
Hope this helps, and if you have any questions, please let me know!
Thanks for taking the time to make that Dray. I’m having some trouble actually wrapping my head around the layout. I see where it is going, but there is lots of repeating data to parse through.
That said, disregarding Moto ratios (any answer why those ratios are different then main additions?), just picking rice, the TMAK Guide additions are 2.5 c, 6 c and 10.7-11.1 c rice. Not 2.5, 5 and 10. Or 3, 6 and 12.
That is right what I am talking about. It’s close, but not exactly double. Or if you prefer, using water that is much easier to see the ratio, it’s 2.75, 8.75 and 17. Those don’t double.
And please know (to everyone and Bob especially) I’m not trying to pick apart the method and troll for arguments (hrm, do trolls say that too?..hrm…). I’m a chemist by training and having method and amounts not align make be concerned I’m missing something, so I’m trying to understand.
As far as understanding, Dray, why are your spreadsheet’s 1st and 2nd additions the same value? or am I misunderstanding what I am seeing?
Its the “what” being doubled that might be causing the confusion. The addition amount isn’t double, it’s the amount in the container after the addition is doubled.
So I start with 5. My first addition isn’t doubled, it starts the process. At the end of the second addition we need 10, so we add 5. Now we have 10. To double we add 10 and after the third addition we will have 20.
1st N
2nd +N
3rd +2N
( to continue on to show progression of the factor for N)
4th +4N
5th +8N
…
The number of steps are 3, and we need a total of 10 lbs of rice to be used by the end of the third addition. So take 10 / (2^3 - 2^2) = 2.5, N = 2.5
N = TotalAmount / (2^MaxSteps - 2^(MaxSteps-1))
Now the guide uses cups of rice which is a very close approximation to weight. 1 cup is almost .5 lbs (anywhere from .44 to .46 lbs) from one source I found.
I would say the guide is close enough as the last addition in the guide expects the remaining rice to be 5lbs which would, if all things being even, be aligned to double the contents from 2nd step to 3rd step.
So in the guide the remaining rice is prob. more than 5lbs as expected.
If (and big if) my spread sheet has the understanding of doubling correct and my assumption the weights of rice (and koji) is of dry rice, then it should produce similar results.
Then again, I may be thinking about the ingredients being doubled not the volume. Have to checked to see if the volume from one step to the next is doubled?
I always just made the moto, then treated the moto as yeast starter and not worried about the moto for calculating the moromi additions.
I added a moto to moromi ratio out of curiosity on the spreadsheet.
You could add a little more koji and steamed rice and maybe wait a day, but how much are you off? All we are really trying to do is get a good mix of bugs going to acidify the mash, and some aesthetics and a firm foundation to allow a yeast colony to thrive.
If you are half of what you should be then, I’d add some more. If you followed the guide, you are fine, I know that works.
I am at just about 55%. More rice is soaking now to steam this evening. What I get for adjusting a recipe without waiting for others to chime in :oops: I feel better having a full foundation. I’ve kept my sanitation spotless, so I really don’t mind waiting a further day to pitch the yeast. It’s a really good slurry now and suspect it will just rock forward.
[quote=“dray”]Its the “what” being doubled that might be causing the confusion. The addition amount isn’t double, it’s the amount in the container after the addition is doubled.
…snip…
Then again, I may be thinking about the ingredients being doubled not the volume. Have to checked to see if the volume from one step to the next is doubled?[/quote]
Well, I was re-reading the Taylor-made guide, and cross referenced to Fred Eckhardt’s book and found this in both, in regards to the Hatsuzoe addition:
I’ll chime in with what I’ve seen. For years, I’ve used an addition calculator I made in excel. It’s probably similar to Dray’s. I used proportions I found in a book on microbiology, which has accounts from the '50s.
Maybe you’ve seen this link, but it has an even older account on proportions than the ones I use. This paper says the “double with each addition” thing happened by physically dividing the mash into separate containers. It then shows the additions made to those containers, exampled from a couple kura. It’s an interesting read, starts on pg 49.
I realise I am probably a bit late to this discussion, but I have been out of the sake brewing for a while . The opportunity to brew some sake hasn’t really been present .
Either way, I’d just like to share with you a similar excel sheet for calculating the additions for different batch sizes. Back when I made this, I took a similar approach as you did with a lot of conversions and reading different places. Basically, what I wanted to do was to combine some steps from taylors and from homebrewsake. From this excel sheet you can also see what ratios I used for the additions (with koji, rice and water scaling different throughout the fermentation - e.g. little water in the beginning).
I was as confused as you were by the doubling once I began making sake and that is one of the reasons why I made this. I just went all the way and created an excel sheet, a sake brewing guide and a website .
That document link was truncated, and while this is forever old, I’m curious if you still have your sake doc handy. I’d love to take a look. The sakebrew site is down, so I couldn’t even see the original content. Thank!
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